BHO has excellent judment though

radbag · Post by **radbag** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:44 pm

slider - you're not a dummy...you know what republicans hold as core values.

as far as asking for the pubs to budge, why do you need 100% support? why would you THINK you can get that? why would you think you SHOULD get that? dems run the house, dems are in the WH...get it done. why lobby to get everyone on board? don't understand that.

G8rMom7 · Post by **G8rMom7** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:45 pm

slider, I think the core values are small government and self-reliance...taking responsibility for yourselves and not relying on the government to solve all your problems. I'm sure if you are looking to individual politicians to define "Republican" you will likely not find that person. Right now I think this is why the Repub party is in termoil. So many of our politicians have turned their back on those core values in the name of...well, I'm not sure why to be honest. I'm sure someone else could answer that.

But there have been plenty of Democrats who have also turned on their core values as well. What about all those Dems who VOTED to go to war with Iraq...including Hillary. This point is always conveniently forgotten in all the rants about that evil George W.

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:26 pm

Agree with m7....Pubs' core values are about refusing to rely on the government to do everything in life because of the risks involved in centralized government.

and slider, you of all people should know that the Republican party has been hijacked by the neoconservatives for the last 20+ years.

p.s. From what I've read the neocons' roots go back to post-Depression, WWII era...the environment at the time made them very open to government intervention but they were critical of the liberal way of doing things (too much outright gov't planning, etc)...they originally seemed to populate a section of the left wing of the political spectrum but over time they never gained a ton of traction among the liberals at large. So they ended up hijacking the Pubs instead. That's what I've gathered.

You know political parties ebb and flow and even evolve over time.

radbag · Post by **radbag** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:37 pm

i still don't know why there is a need to have the minority fall in line with the majority effectively eliminating the minority...does the majority not acknowledge the minority? or is it just THIS majority that doesn't?

i'm a minority in more ways than one....please enlighten me on the merits of a minority relenting on their core values and beliefs for the sake of agreeing with the popular opinion. please.

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:47 pm

If we had MORE uncompromising minority groups in this nation, perhaps we wouldn't be quite as fucked as we are now. And I'm not talking about racial or ethnic minorities...I'm talking political/ideological. Do you not recognize the risk, slider, in having EVERYone agree? What if we're wrong? Then we're already over the cliff because there was nobody to put the brakes on because everybody was too busy agreeing to hit the gas!

radbag · Post by **radbag** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:57 pm

i remember back in the spring of 1992

we were to get married in june of that year and rosemary and i were completing our pre-cana marriage courses that catholic churches require of you to complete before you do get married.

not to get too far off track but our priest tells us "fighting and arguing, assuming it doesn't get physical, between husband and wife are inevitable and are quite frankly healthy and a sign of a good marriage and partnership...it is so because if a husband or wife agree with their spouse without opposition or without condition, it just means that someone is kissing someones ass and that aint good."

slideman67 · Post by **slideman67** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:35 pm

slider, I think the core values are small government and self-reliance...taking responsibility for yourselves and not relying on the government to solve all your problems. I'm sure if you are looking to individual politicians to define "Republican" you will likely not find that person. Right now I think this is why the Repub party is in termoil. So many of our politicians have turned their back on those core values in the name of...well, I'm not sure why to be honest. I'm sure someone else could answer that.

But there have been plenty of Democrats who have also turned on their core values as well. What about all those Dems who VOTED to go to war with Iraq...including Hillary. This point is always conveniently forgotten in all the rants about that evil George W.

I am well aware of Democrats who voted for the war - that is one of the reasons I backed Obama in the primaries. Trust me, that point is not forgotten - Bush had too many spineless enablers in the Democratic Party including those who should have known better. However, that vote is not indicative of a core value of the Democratic Party.

Rad, I know what the Republicans claim to be for, but their actions do not match their words, hence my question. M7, I get the whole not having the government in your lives, but that line of logic is shot on things like Terri Schiavo. Regardless of your opinion on that issue, the Republicans went against a core principle of keeping the government out of people's lives by getting involved in a family matter (I don't want to turn this into a debate on that). Republicans also want to keep the government out of your life, unless it is in the bedroom, in people's love lives by dictating who they can love, or in a doctor's office in telling a woman what she can or cannot do. Regardless of your opinions on these issues, the fact that Republicans want the government involved in these personal choices goes against that principle.

And I do think the Republicans are screwed right now. Right now, they are effectively a regional rump party (look up the term) that consist of the old Confederacy, Alaska, and the Mormon Triangle of Utah, Wyoming, and Idaho. They have some plains states, but many cities in the US have more people that the Dakotas, Nebraska, and Kansas. They cannot win if they don't grow their base, but if they attempt to become more socially moderate, their base will revolt. AA is right that the neocons have hijacked the old Republican Party. The Rockefeller wing of Republican Moderates is long gone.

I asked the question not to be a jerk, but to really get an opinion. There is currently a civil war in the Republican Party to determine its direction. Currently the conservatives are winning as moderates are losing elections, like Chris Shays from CT, facing primary challenges, or abandoning the party. As a Democrat, I am enjoying the circular firing squad and hope that the Republican Party follows Rush and Fox "News" off a cliff. I will only say that the Republican Party cannot grow unless it expands, and moderates its positions, and I don't see it expanding anytime soon. It is not a big tent party, despite what it claims.

My 2 cents.

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:44 pm

I love how you chastise Republicans for not being more bi-partisan and then state categorically that you hope the entire party goes over a cliff. That shit's funny, feels like I'm back in 7th grade.

slideman67 · Post by **slideman67** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:11 pm

My personal opinion. And you are right - there is some irony there, and justified criticism towards me. Completely justified - I admit, I have strong feeling in this matter. But in my view, the current version of the party isn't worth much - and most of the time they are an impedement to progress in this country. My disdain for them has been earned because of their words and actions. And trust me, I know there are many Republicans who feel the same way about Democrats. I am sure many on this board feel that way - I am just more open about my feelings.

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:16 pm

Oh believe me, I hate them ALL more than anyone here hates either side. No doubt in my mind about that.

IHateUGAlyDawgs · Post by **IHateUGAlyDawgs** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:17 pm

My personal opinion. And you are right - there is some irony there, and justified criticism towards me. Completely justified - I admit, I have strong feeling in this matter. But in my view, the current version of the party isn't worth much. My disdain for them has been earned because of their words and actions. And trust me, I know there are many Republicans who feel the same way about Democrats. I am sure many on this board feel that way - I am just more open about my feelings.

No...I'm perfectly willing to tell you to go fuck yourself.

slideman67 · Post by **slideman67** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:22 pm

I am assuing this was a joking comment since we don't want this to devolve into Too Hot Territory.

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:26 pm

It's just a more succinct, direct way of saying what you've said about Republicans over the past months.

bluegrassg8r · Post by **bluegrassg8r** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:30 pm

As must as I hate liberals, I hate elitists nearly that much, which is really saying something.

bluegrassg8r · Post by **bluegrassg8r** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:32 pm

To clarify: I hate liberalism, I manage to get along with liberals under certain circumstances. They aren't all jackbooted protomarxists, just some of them, and those tend to be the loudest, most visible element among the secular left.

radbag · Post by **radbag** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:11 pm

the schiavo case was extraordinary in that from the get go, and as i recall it, schiavo's husband, can't recall the name, wanted her to die and then didn't want her to die and then was convinced to kill her or was it not kill her...i've forgotten...nonetheless, there was flip-flopping there on him wanting to kill her.

as for core values and beliefs - i believe those that promote small gov't and minimal intervention, support of the belief that the citizens know what is good for themselves, and support of the belief that the markets are free markets are my beliefs.

i don't like:
- raising my taxes and providing me services i do not wish or need

i do like:
- lowering my taxes and allowing me to do whatever i wish to do with my money

i don't wish to debate you on this either and it's not my point but on more controversial topics since you are the one to bring them up, i don't like when gov't intervenes in peoples lives when they:

- give 13 years old the 'choice' to have abortions without having to have the consent of their parents
- MANDATE that all hospitals will have to be able to perform abortions...catholic hospitals as well...of course, they won't perform them and effectively, they will be shut down as a result...more job loss

i do like when gov't limits themselves when they:
- are not involved in any way on how i run my family
- don't impose their social agendas on me and don't use my taxpayer money to fund it.

G8rMom7 · Post by **G8rMom7** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:02 pm

perfect rad...I'm totally with you on ALL counts above. I will add that as a society I WISH we could some how find a way to get back to helping your neighbor, do unto others, and all that stuff. A lot of people that don't really understand think Pubs are cold and heartless and don't want to help those in need. Nothing could be farther from the truth (at least for me). My feeling is that it is not necessarily up to the gov't to help those people...it's up to their family, church, neighbors...and the gov't's ONLY role should be to help those that are able serve others, by keeping their taxes low and staying the you-know-what out of their lives. And NOT dictating to them who should be helped and who shouldn't.

radbag · Post by **radbag** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:12 pm

and this woman who got AI'd into having 8 kids...sheesh...great use of science folks.

it's so wrong on so many levels.

6 kids already AND on welfare AND has enough money to pursue AI?????

IHateUGAlyDawgs · Post by **IHateUGAlyDawgs** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:24 pm

perfect rad...I'm totally with you on ALL counts above. I will add that as a society I WISH we could some how find a way to get back to helping your neighbor, do unto others, and all that stuff. A lot of people that don't really understand think Pubs are cold and heartless and don't want to help those in need. Nothing could be farther from the truth (at least for me). My feeling is that it is not necessarily up to the gov't to help those people...it's up to their family, church, neighbors...and the gov't's ONLY role should be to help those that are able serve others, by keeping their taxes low and staying the you-know-what out of their lives. And NOT dictating to them who should be helped and who shouldn't.

werd. Many dollars for charity. Not one red penny for tribute.

slideman67 · Post by **slideman67** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:27 pm

It's just a more succinct, direct way of saying what you've said about Republicans over the past months.

There is a difference in talking about Republican voters vs Republican politicians. To the best of my knowledge, I have not attacked any of you personally - barring that incident between Tip and me.

slideman67 · Post by **slideman67** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:30 pm

the schiavo case was extraordinary in that from the get go, and as i recall it, schiavo's husband, can't recall the name, wanted her to die and then didn't want her to die and then was convinced to kill her or was it not kill her...i've forgotten...nonetheless, there was flip-flopping there on him wanting to kill her.

as for core values and beliefs - i believe those that promote small gov't and minimal intervention, support of the belief that the citizens know what is good for themselves, and support of the belief that the markets are free markets are my beliefs.

i don't like:
- raising my taxes and providing me services i do not wish or need

i do like:
- lowering my taxes and allowing me to do whatever i wish to do with my money

i don't wish to debate you on this either and it's not my point but on more controversial topics since you are the one to bring them up, i don't like when gov't intervenes in peoples lives when they:

- give 13 years old the 'choice' to have abortions without having to have the consent of their parents
- MANDATE that all hospitals will have to be able to perform abortions...catholic hospitals as well...of course, they won't perform them and effectively, they will be shut down as a result...more job loss

i do like when gov't limits themselves when they:
- are not involved in any way on how i run my family
- don't impose their social agendas on me and don't use my taxpayer money to fund it.

And I don't want to debate you on everything either. Its OK if we disagree. And we obviously do.

My big thing is don't impose your morality on me (not you personally, but those in your party). And don't give me a line of bullshit either. I have a very low tolerance for that.

radbag · Post by **radbag** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:23 pm

i don't think i impose myself on you either though i think catholics should start doing so.

i'd like to see BHO try and piss off some muslims and force them to eat pork or something to that affect...better yet, let's see BHO crack down on scientoligists and see how far that takes him politically...won't happen obviously because of the backlash that would ensue...the catholic religion is historically a religion in which it doesn't impose it's beliefs on others...catholics practice humbly and with great faith...i believe catholics are such an easy target for those who oppose it because of it's willingness to endure it's challengers and it's steadfast belief in holding back from imposing it's beliefs on other...it is because catholics don't/won't do anything about the attacks.

i believe the catholics of america need to adopt your stance on lines and acts of bullshit as well and as you put it, have very low tolerance for that.

Tipmoose · Post by **Tipmoose** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:49 am

It's just a more succinct, direct way of saying what you've said about Republicans over the past months.
There is a difference in talking about Republican voters vs Republican politicians. To the best of my knowledge, I have not attacked any of you personally - barring that incident between Tip and me.

And, you'll notice, I have pretty much stopped discussing things with you. A light came on a few posts back when you ranted on how evil the Republicans are and how conservative (Wha???) the press is. You view Republicans and their party the exact same way I view Democrats and their party. And so trying to have a productive conversation somewhere in the middle is simply not possible and is a waste of time. Therefore, I have decided to hold my views, contribute my money, and back my philosophy and enjoy anything and everything unpleasant that happens to the current administration.

DocZaius · Post by **DocZaius** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:26 am

My big thing is don't impose your morality on me (not you personally, but those in your party).

When the government takes your money and decides when and how to spend it, with no input from you, it is imposing someone else's morality on you. And in a far-reaching and more concrete way than, say, making partial-birth abortions illegal or outlawing gay marriage.

I'm just saying.

slideman67 · Post by **slideman67** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:31 pm

It's just a more succinct, direct way of saying what you've said about Republicans over the past months.
There is a difference in talking about Republican voters vs Republican politicians. To the best of my knowledge, I have not attacked any of you personally - barring that incident between Tip and me.
And, you'll notice, I have pretty much stopped discussing things with you. A light came on a few posts back when you ranted on how evil the Republicans are and how conservative (Wha???) the press is. You view Republicans and their party the exact same way I view Democrats and their party. And so trying to have a productive conversation somewhere in the middle is simply not possible and is a waste of time. Therefore, I have decided to hold my views, contribute my money, and back my philosophy and enjoy anything and everything unpleasant that happens to the current administration.

Fair enough. As I shall do everything possible to help the Republicans drive themselves off a cliff. I look forward to their ranks being further reduced after 2010.