Looks like I was right all along about...

TTBHG · Post by **TTBHG** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:32 pm

Anyone listening to Mitchell's presser on ESPN radio?

radbag · Post by **radbag** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:38 pm

i listened to the whole boring thing.

here's what we care about essentially

http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf

radbag · Post by **radbag** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:38 pm

no mention of pujols btw

TTBHG · Post by **TTBHG** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:50 pm

Pujols surprised me. I really doubted he would be on there.

TTBHG · Post by **TTBHG** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:47 pm

So where do they go from here? What do you see coming out of all this. I don't see much at all and rightfully so.

Owners, GMs and Managers are just as dublicitous in this as the players were. They knew what was going on and coward away. They loved the long balls and increased ratings and attendance figures....

Thoughts?

IHateUGAlyDawgs · Post by **IHateUGAlyDawgs** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:56 pm

I see, hopefully, better testing policies and policement of the issue like you see in the NFL. I'm not saying the NFL is clean nor am I saying MLB is, but what I hope for the return of the perception that the game is clean.

TTBHG · Post by **TTBHG** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:10 pm

I still don't think either sport is clean. Any sport for that matter. Until someone can come up with a way to dtect HGH and these other designer steriods that MLB, NFL and others have zero ways to test for and zero chances of catching.

IHateUGAlyDawgs · Post by **IHateUGAlyDawgs** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:21 pm

I agree, but the perception is that the NFL is clean for the most part, that's what I hope MLB can return to.

TTBHG · Post by **TTBHG** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:24 pm

i would hope to see someone like varitek, millar, timlin, foulke or youkalis.
Not gonna happen. I will bet you a dinner at Nobu when I am up there that it doesn't happen.

there ya have it dude.

varitek, garciaparra, clemens, damon....all redsox dog.

No Varitek, Garciaparra or Damon

Only Clemens who is more known for being a Yankee.

So let's look at it.
YANKEES
Clemens
Pettitte
Kevin Brown
Giambi

RED SOX
Gagne- a washed up closer that probably wouldn't have played again anyway and the Red Sox probably looking for a way to void his contract.

Hater- still think I was overreacting?

If they are guilty then so be it(which I believe they are) but do you see how that can be misconstrued?

Couple that with the fact that Paul Byrd's name leaks 10 hours before game 7 of the Detroit/RS series leading all of the Tigers to spend all afternoon and all evening leading up to the game answering questions about steriods instead of worrying about playing the game.

radbag · Post by **radbag** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:49 pm

kevin brown did it as a ranger, giambi did it as an A, clemens/petitte are texas guys.

RickySlade · Post by **RickySlade** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:10 pm

You can't omit Clemens from the Red Sox if you're going to include Brown with the Yankees...he's better known as a Dodger, and you can make a case for Giambi with the Athletics. I'm not Hater, but I do think you're overreacting a bit.

TTBHG · Post by **TTBHG** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:18 pm

I am refering to the current team they are on. The dodgers wont answer questions about Brown and steriods but you can bet your ass that the Yankees will have too.

RickySlade · Post by **RickySlade** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:24 pm

I seriously doubt the Yankees will be fielding many questions r/t Brown, but I understand what you're saying. As for the number of Yankees in the report, one of Mitchell's informants was a former Yankee S&C coach...of course there are a lot of pinstripers listed.

FWIW, I agree that it's a terrible idea to have someone affiliated with a team doing the investigation. I doubt being a part of the Red Sox organization affected his performance, but you'd think they could have found a neutral investigator so people wouldn't have a reason to form all of these ridiculous conspiracy theories. I suppose his familiarity with the ins and outs of MLB helped him immensely, but...

apexgator · Post by **apexgator** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:28 am

The question that I'm pondering is that with some of these guys hormones and steroids have extended their careers. In some cases allowing them to get 3 or 4 or more seasons of playing time and being able to get 150 more homeruns or 50 more wins to get them a homerun record or push them over 300 wins. Without the juicing would they have achieved those marks and would they be HOF worthy? How many more HR's would Aaron hit if he was juicing?

radbag · Post by **radbag** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:27 am

The question that I'm pondering is that with some of these guys hormones and steroids have extended their careers. In some cases allowing them to get 3 or 4 or more seasons of playing time and being able to get 150 more homeruns or 50 more wins to get them a homerun record or push them over 300 wins. Without the juicing would they have achieved those marks and would they be HOF worthy? How many more HR's would Aaron hit if he was juicing?

well - this is the crux of the matter in that the ones who played by the rules and were prudent deal with what the normal problems of aging and wear and tear whereas cheaters do not and get to prolong their careers and in some cases, GET a career.

you know how many minor leaguers STAY in the minor leagues because they refuse to cheat...it's easy to get out you know...just juice it and watch your numbers soar beyond your normal averages...you'll get to the big show quicker that's for sure.

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:44 am

i could be mistaken, but i was under the impression that the minor leagues have historically been regulated much tighter than MLB when it comes to drug testing.

anybody know how minor league testing has compared to MLB testing over the past two decades?

TTBHG · Post by **TTBHG** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:52 am

I am almost 100% sure you are correct AA. They(minor leaguers) are not bound by the CBA. The players Union always found a way to make sure when they were bargaining to keep drug testing out of MLB. The minor leaguers did not have that power and thus were being tested.

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:59 am

found it in the Mitchell Report...had a feeling it would be there, but it's more recent than I originally thought...apparently Selig unilaterally implemented a drug testing program for the MLB affiliated minor leagues in June 2001:

The program applied to all minor league players who were not members of the
Players Association bargaining unit (that is, players who were not on the 40-man roster of any
major league club). The Commissioner could impose drug testing unilaterally as to minor league
players because they were not members of the Players Association and thus not parties to a
collective bargaining agreement. The program implemented a system of random urine testing for
prohibited substances, subjecting each player to up to three random tests per year in addition to
any “reasonable cause” testing that might be justified in the case of any player.

The minor league program has continued to the present, with refinements in the
list of prohibited substances, the number of random tests, testing procedures, and the penalties
applicable for failed tests. Although the initial revision of the program was to lower the penalties
that could result from failed drug tests, since August 2005 the penalties for failing a test for use
of a prohibited performance enhancing substance under that program have been the same as
those in place in Major League Baseball, which are discussed in more detail below: a suspension
of 50 games for the first failed test; a suspension of 100 games for the second failed test; and
permanent suspension from baseball for a third failed test.

IHateUGAlyDawgs · Post by **IHateUGAlyDawgs** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:31 am

i would hope to see someone like varitek, millar, timlin, foulke or youkalis.
Not gonna happen. I will bet you a dinner at Nobu when I am up there that it doesn't happen.

there ya have it dude.

varitek, garciaparra, clemens, damon....all redsox dog.
No Varitek, Garciaparra or Damon

Only Clemens who is more known for being a Yankee.

So let's look at it.
YANKEES
Clemens
Pettitte
Kevin Brown
Giambi

RED SOX
Gagne- a washed up closer that probably wouldn't have played again anyway and the Red Sox probably looking for a way to void his contract.

Hater- still think I was overreacting?

If they are guilty then so be it(which I believe they are) but do you see how that can be misconstrued?

Couple that with the fact that Paul Byrd's name leaks 10 hours before game 7 of the Detroit/RS series leading all of the Tigers to spend all afternoon and all evening leading up to the game answering questions about steriods instead of worrying about playing the game.

Yes, I think you are still overreacting a bit. Two of his three primary sources come from the city of New York...color me shocked that there is an NY bias. The only reason there aren't more Braves (though Justice is on there - again probably due to his affiliation with the Yanks, or maybe the Injuns because of David Segui), Dodgers, Diamondbacks, A's, Angels, etc...is because their clubhouse attendants didn't turn state's evidence. It's that simple. What this report tells me more than anything is that it is just the tip of the iceberg and if a Braves or Devil Rays trainer had piped in there'd be a lot more of those names too.

Toothy · Post by **Toothy** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:51 pm

Yes, I think you are still overreacting a bit. Two of his three primary sources come from the city of New York...color me shocked that there is an NY bias. The only reason there aren't more Braves (though Justice is on there - again probably due to his affiliation with the Yanks, or maybe the Injuns because of David Segui), Dodgers, Diamondbacks, A's, Angels, etc...is because their clubhouse attendants didn't turn state's evidence. It's that simple. What this report tells me more than anything is that it is just the tip of the iceberg and if a Braves or Devil Rays trainer had piped in there'd be a lot more of those names too.

Which is why this entire enterprise was ill-conceived from the start. That is not to impugn its findings, but its methods. They should have found a legal means to justify subpoena power, and they should have gone after everyone.

Yes, Hater's point is spot on: get the Yankees' trainer and guess what? You're gonna get Yankees.

IHateUGAlyDawgs · Post by **IHateUGAlyDawgs** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:10 pm

Yes, I think you are still overreacting a bit. Two of his three primary sources come from the city of New York...color me shocked that there is an NY bias. The only reason there aren't more Braves (though Justice is on there - again probably due to his affiliation with the Yanks, or maybe the Injuns because of David Segui), Dodgers, Diamondbacks, A's, Angels, etc...is because their clubhouse attendants didn't turn state's evidence. It's that simple. What this report tells me more than anything is that it is just the tip of the iceberg and if a Braves or Devil Rays trainer had piped in there'd be a lot more of those names too.

Which is why this entire enterprise was ill-conceived from the start. That is not to impugn its findings, but its methods. They should have found a legal means to justify subpoena power, and they should have gone after everyone.

Yes, Hater's point is spot on: get the Yankees' trainer and guess what? You're gonna get Yankees.

I don't think anyone is disputing that, Toothy. Just trying to point out to TT that it wasn't a bias by Mitchell, just happened to be who sang like a canary.