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Controversial opinions

Do you have any that are a little off the beaten path (not current politicly motivated?)

I had a discussion on why Benedict Arnold was unjustly vilified and the unsung hero of the American Revolution and I don't blame him one bit for his attempt at treason.

Facts yo.
 
Juggs said:
Do you have any that are a little off the beaten path (not current politicly motivated?)

I had a discussion on why Benedict Arnold was unjustly vilified and the unsung hero of the American Revolution and I don't blame him one bit for his attempt at treason.

Facts yo.

I've heard a little about this before - that he was not properly recognized for his valor and command decisions, so he decided to switch sides, is that about the size of it?

As for an unpopular opinion of my own: Doritos are disgusting.
 
DocZaius said:
Juggs said:
Do you have any that are a little off the beaten path (not current politicly motivated?)

I had a discussion on why Benedict Arnold was unjustly vilified and the unsung hero of the American Revolution and I don't blame him one bit for his attempt at treason.

Facts yo.

I've heard a little about this before - that he was not properly recognized for his valor and command decisions, so he decided to switch sides, is that about the size of it?

As for my an unpopular opinion of my own: Doritos are disgusting.
He's the victim of a giant smear campaign. It started before the war. His rich dad was a drunk and squandered the family honor and wealth, so he was outcast by the town for the actions of his dad. He was sent away. He became a merchant and built his own wealth while barely an adult. Very honor bound, challenged a man to a duel and killed him for insulting his wife. As soon as rumors of the war started, he formed and funded a militia before the war even officially began. He fully bought into the Constitution that ended with talking about honor. The dude was given few supplies or support, yet always beat the British. Strategically brilliant, brave and always stayed on the front lines. His men loved him. Early on, he butted heads with another man who he already had personal beef with. The guy was simply jealous of Arnold, so he started spreading lies to his wealthy friends (some in Continental Congress). Arnold took a bullet to the leg twice, the 2nd nearly crippling him. The 2nd was also at the Battle of Saratoga where he was the hero, defying orders to not stay in camp, but he refused to let his men die and fight a battle with no commander. We won and then Horatio Gates took all the credit, completely leaving Arnold's name out of it. Aristocrats with military positions took credit despite never fighting in a battle while Arnold was sacrificing his own wealth to fight this war and usually being passed over for promotion. The politics, lies, and shit talking was prevalent among the Continental Congress. Arnold from a young age believed a man should earn his title and reputation, not be born into it, which is why he hated the British. Year after year went by of him being spit upon, despite George Washington requesting Arnold be in command and he deserves a promotion. Also during this time, Congress refused to pay Arnold his wages. The men Arnold thought were his friends were the ones backstabbing him out of jealousy. After his 2nd wound that left him unfit to lead in battle, Washington put him in Philly after the British left to put the city back in order. The Patriots were hanging loyalists in the streets, etc. So Arnold made an enemy immediately of the local Pennsylvania militia by putting an end to the lawlessness. Having lost his fortune, he resumed his merchant activities and use military carts to move supplies and offered to pay for the wagons use. But the Pa militia commander saw this as an opportunity, went to Washington and demanded he be removed or he would remove the Pa Militia from the war entirely. Washington was forced to turn on his friend and publicly reprimanded Arnold.

Years of leading men into battle with victories, repeatedly being wounded, he did his duty. His country betrayed him and proved that the new government was no different than the British government. Preferential treatment given to friends and nobility over a man who earned it. The honor he clung to and the words of the Constitution he believed in were lies. He still stuck with the cause, but Washington turning on him was the straw that broke the camel's back. Then he conspired to turn over West Point and the smear campaign of his evil betrayal started. Complete slander of his past contributions, despite they are well documented in many soldiers, commanders, and even Washington's diaries and letters. We have a shit load of written records of his heroics that, without Arnold, the war would have been over long before the French arrived. By years.

The entire story, most men would have said "fuck it" and stopped risking their life and wealth long before Arnold did. He had every right to be angry and bitter. Ultimately, he wasn't wrong about our government. Even Thomas Jefferson and John Adams spread lies and slang mud at each other.

I can't say how long I've waited to give that rant :lol:
 
I think its popular to sometimes make unpopular figures heroic (and vice versa). The british do this with King RIchard III, widely believed to have murdered his own nephews to ascend to the throne (he had the most motive and opportunity).

was arnold as bad as made out to be? probably not, but at a perilous time in our nation's founding, when there was no money to pay anyone, everyone else sucked it up and stayed on the right side and he didn't.
 
Evil gator said:
I think its popular to sometimes make unpopular figures heroic (and vice versa). The british do this with King RIchard III, widely believed to have murdered his own nephews to ascend to the throne (he had the most motive and opportunity).

was arnold as bad as made out to be? probably not, but at a perilous time in our nation's founding, when there was no money to pay anyone, everyone else sucked it up and stayed on the right side and he didn't.

Fair, but not a great comparison. Ultimately, Arnold's treason was irrelevant. It wouldn't have made a difference in the war at that point. Not that that's an excuse. His lack of payment wasn't a factor of betrayal and he never cited it as such. And my bad, I had to google the exact verbiage, it was the Declaration, not Constitution. Arnold wrote about this long before he switched sides, the last line of the Declaration was a mentality he held sacred his entire life.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”

The problem is, the "friends" that were taking credit for Arnold's actions didn't sacrifice any fortune or even risk their lives. They were cowards who refused to engage in battle (Gates was a TERRIBLE general, this is also well documented), spread lies and some of them killed civilians just for being loyalists. They weren't living up to the sacred Honor that Arnold wrote about much of his life and it showed in every action right up until he flipped.

I don't think it's romanticizing a villian to acknowledge that our government didn't live up to their own ideology. They fought the aristocracy that existed within the monarchy and turned into the exact same thing. They just wanted THEIR aristocracy to rein, not the King's. Were they better than the British? Fuck yeah and it's great they did it. My point is, he wasn't the arrogant, evil devil as portrayed. He made more difficult and challenging raids and attacks that made crossing the Delaware look like a cake walk. I'm not saying he should have pouted and switched sides. I 'm saying knowing the whole story makes it far more understanding. In a well documented war effort from every level of command, the only person to sacrifice more than Arnold did in the war was the common soldier. The militia, frontiersman, etc. Many of them had little to gain from war and died anyway. But of the aristocrats and anyone of wealth, no one did more or sacrificed more than he did. And it did not help when he saw men from the rebellion murdering innocent people just for being loyalists, acting just like the British were. That part isn't usually taught.

Yes, it was wrong to switch. That doesn't change the fact that he repeatedly held the British forces from Canada back and delayed them, forcing them to retreat due to winter and bought much needed time for the Rebellion. It kept northern forces from joining southern forces as they planned on numerous occasions. He also masterminded a rumor (lie) that caused the indians to abandon the British, which left the British outmanned (so they thought) and left. 3 armies of British to converge into 1 to crush the Rebellion and Arnold was the reason 2 of the 3 didn't make it.

To say he "probably wasn't as bad as made out to be" is a gross understatement. Despite his treason, America exists today in large part because of that dude's leadership and heroics. They weren't exaggerated, they're documented facts as written by the men who were there and supported by Washington. I'd say that's enough to understand the reasons why he turned instead of just slandering the dude like he was a rat who jumped from a sinking ship. Which is how it's basically taught. No different than glorifying Lincoln despite him trying to export blacks and admitting he'd keep slavery if he could.
 
We have a monument to his left leg and foot!

The Boot Monument is an American Revolutionary War memorial located in Saratoga National Historical Park, New York. It commemorates Major General Benedict Arnold's service at the Battles of Saratoga in the Continental Army, but does not name him.

John Watts de Peyster, a former major general for the New York State Militia during the American Civil War and writer of several military histories about the Battle of Saratoga, erected the monument to commemorate Arnold's contribution to the Continental Army's victory over the British. Arnold was wounded in the foot during the Battle of Quebec, and suffered further injury in the Battle of Ridgefield when his horse was shot out from under him. His last battle injury was at Saratoga, and it occurred near where this monument is located at Tour Stop #7 – Breymann Redoubt. The leg wound effectively ended his career as a fighting soldier. It reads:

Erected 1887 By
JOHN WATTS de PEYSTER
Brev: Maj: Gen: S.N.Y.
2nd V. Pres't Saratoga Mon't Ass't'n:
In memory of
the "most brilliant soldier" of the
Continental Army
who was desperately wounded
on this spot the sally port of
BURGOYNES GREAT WESTERN REDOUBT
7th October, 1777
winning for his countrymen
the decisive battle of the
American Revolution
and for himself the rank of
Major General.3

When Benedict Arnold was leading the forces of the King against his former compatriots in Virginia, among his prisoners was a certain plucky and witty officer, who, in answer to Arnold's question, "What will the Americans do with me if they catch me?" replied, "They will cut off the leg which was wounded when you were fighting so gloriously for the cause of liberty, and bury it with the honors of war, and hang the rest of your body on a gibbet."[1]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_Monument
 
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