The Back Alley Archives

Posted: **Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:12 pm**

NSFW language, obviously:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk#

Goes perfectly with my favorite campaign so far...Vote for Nobody 2010!

We, the Anti-Electorate, do not believe there is a need for "strong leadership" in government.

We are not drawn to "intellectual" authorities and political "heroes."

We are not impressed with titles, ranks, and pecking orders – politicians, celebrities, and gurus.

We do not struggle for control of organizations, social circles, and government.

We do not lobby the State for favors or permission to control those with whom we disagree.

Rather, we advocate freedom.

By its very nature, the State does not.

Exercise your right to say "No" to the warfare-welfare system.

Refuse to vote. Then tell your friends why.

-- Wally Conger, The Anti-Electorate Manifesto

http://anti-politics.ws/

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:22 am**

Yeah, I don't agree with this sentiment at all.

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:14 am**

IMHO, if you don't vote, STFU! I don't care what your opinion is, because when the time counted, you didn't stand up and make your voice heard. When you don't vote, you dishonor the memory of every American soldier who fought and died for your right to vote. You also dishonor the memory of your ancestors who immigrated over to this country for a better life.

I love George Carlin, but I disagree with him on this. If you don't vote , STFU!

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:50 am**

Sorry, but logic is on my side. Emotion is on yours. I'll go with logic.

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:39 pm**

How is what I am saying illogical?

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:08 pm**

Because by "making your voice heard" you are also necessarily agreeing to the process and its outcome. In that case, you have no ground to stand on and complain. By abstaining, I have not consented to the process nor the outcome, which reserves my moral ground to rightly critique the system.

All the stuff about "dishonoring" people is what caused me to say that emotion is on your side.

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:19 pm**

AA, by not voting, you are guaranteeing that the kind of society you wish to see will never happen.

I mean, I get where you're coming from with the no-government-is-good-government vibe and all, but how are you going to compete with the 99.9% of likely voters who want to vote a politician into office? These people have the power to tax you, throw you in jail and generally suppress every aspect of your freedom if you let them.

There's only two ways to fight them: the ballot box and the ammo box. Which is preferable?

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:23 pm**

I can't be logically consistent and use the political process to end the political process. That's the thing about principled libertarians (aka anarchists or voluntaryists): we believe strongly that the means are as important, sometimes more important, than the end.

I don't accept that the ballot box and the ammo box are the only two ways to fight the statists. I believe in agorism. Counter-economics. Providing statists better options than the State.

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:35 pm**

Then I stand by what I said AA - if you don't vote, STFU! I don't give a damn what your opinion is when it comes to politics. And I think a lot more people here would agree with me on that. Doc Z is right - the only way to make a change is by the ballot box or ammo box. Ballot box is much more preferable. Not trying to start an argument, just stating my opinion. That might be harsh, but I would say this to anyone who doesn't vote.

Being an American citizen requires everyone to do three things - vote, pay taxes and serve on juries. We might not like doing them, but they are part of the price we pay for our freedoms. And I am right about dishonoring people as well. Members of the military from the Revolutionary War on fought and died for these freedoms. By choosing not to partake in the choice of your government, you are abdicating your responsibilities as an American citizen. And as much as I love George Carlin, he is dead wrong about this particular topic.

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:42 pm**

Then I stand by what I said AA - if you don't vote, STFU! I don't give a damn what your opinion is when it comes to politics. And I think a lot more people here would agree with me on that. Doc Z is right - the only way to make a change is by the ballot box or ammo box. Ballot box is much more preferable. Not trying to start an argument, just stating my opinion. That might be harsh, but I would say this to anyone who doesn't vote.

Being an American citizen requires everyone to do three things - vote, pay taxes and serve on juries. We might not like doing them, but they are part of the price we pay for our freedoms. And I am right about dishonoring people as well. Members of the military from the Revolutionary War on fought and died for these freedoms. By choosing not to partake in the choice of your government, you are abdicating your responsibilities as an American citizen. And as much as I love George Carlin, he is dead wrong about this particular topic.

None of this addresses the argument I gave for my position. If you aren't interested in a debate that's fine. You're just repeating your position. You have yet to criticize the logic of my argument.

And freedom doesn't require a price. Freedom is a natural state. Oh, and I never asked to be an american citizen--I was conscripted by your government at the point of a gun to pay taxes.

I haven't been required to vote (yet). I have no interest in using force to control other people's lives nor choosing which person should be legally allowed to use force to control other people's lives.

I've also already explained the third option besides the ballot box and the ammo box.

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:55 pm**

Since emotional pleas seem to carry so much weight, here's the emotional appeal to not voting (more NSFW language):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igbBItLemsM#

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:13 pm**

I completely criticize the logic of your argument. The price of freedom is eternal viligance from those who wish to take it, either by force or by apathy. Ask the people of North Korea or Iran about freedom being a natural state

And if you don't want to be an American citizen, then leave. Nobody is stopping you. But if you drive on the roads in this country, enjoy police and fire service protection, and enjoy the protection of the military, then you are enjoying the services of this country, and the price you have to pay for that is voting, paying taxes and doing jury duty.

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:39 pm**

I completely criticize the logic of your argument. The price of freedom is eternal viligance from those who wish to take it, either by force or by apathy. Ask the people of North Korea or Iran about freedom being a natural state

This does nothing to diminish the veracity of my argument. NK and Iran are overrun with government, which is artificial. And I never claimed that freedom doesn't require the vigilance to protect oneself from those who would take your freedom. My problem lies with the pieces of paper Americans worship that destroy their natural freedom. I cannot defend myself against my freedom being taken because the government deems it illegal for me to do so and I'm not going to use violence to try to break that mold. If they ever try to use actual force against me, I will likely do my best to defend myself, but that will just end up with me dead because y'all think it's OK for government to kill me if I try to defend my freedom.

And if you don't want to be an American citizen, then leave. Nobody is stopping you. But if you drive on the roads in this country, enjoy police and fire service protection, and enjoy the protection of the military, then you are enjoying the services of this country, and the price you have to pay for that is voting, paying taxes and doing jury duty.

lulz. The "love it or leave it" argument is akin to telling a woman in a hypothetical society that legitimizes rape by appealing to the common good (it increases the reproduction of the species, giving us a better chance at survival) that she either has to accept rape and all the freedoms that come with it, or she has to leave. That she cannot rightfully complain about being raped because it is "the price she pays" for living in that society.

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:40 pm**

I completely criticize the logic of your argument. The price of freedom is eternal viligance from those who wish to take it, either by force or by apathy. Ask the people of North Korea or Iran about freedom being a natural state

This does nothing to diminish the veracity of my argument. NK and Iran are overrun with government, which is artificial. And I never claimed that freedom doesn't require the vigilance to protect oneself from those who would take your freedom. My problem lies with the pieces of paper Americans worship that destroy their natural freedom. I cannot defend myself against my freedom being taken because the government deems it illegal for me to do so and I'm not going to use violence to try to break that mold. If they ever try to use actual force against me, I will likely do my best to defend myself, but that will just end up with me dead because y'all think it's OK for government to kill me if I try to defend my freedom.

*Edit to add: This still doesn't logically criticize my position. You're simply saying: YOU'RE WRONG, DEAL WITH IT!

And if you don't want to be an American citizen, then leave. Nobody is stopping you. But if you drive on the roads in this country, enjoy police and fire service protection, and enjoy the protection of the military, then you are enjoying the services of this country, and the price you have to pay for that is voting, paying taxes and doing jury duty.
lulz. The "love it or leave it" argument is akin to telling a woman in a hypothetical society that legitimizes rape by appealing to the common good (it increases the reproduction of the species, giving us a better chance at survival) that she either has to accept rape and all the freedoms that come with it, or she has to leave. That she cannot rightfully complain about being raped because it is "the price she pays" for living in that society.

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:59 pm**

i've always said....if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:39 pm**

I just think it's funny that I couldn't disagree more with Slider on basic politics, but I am lock step with him on this one.

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:41 pm**

If there's one thing that brings all statists together, it's their rote dismissal of anarchism without any serious consideration. Sad but true.

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:05 pm**

Yes, I am a statist...ha! The thing about anarchy IMO, is that the only place it would be successful is in heaven...I mean human nature is not something you can really change while here on earth...but MOST anarchists I know don't believe in God. Isn't that the definition of irony?

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:07 pm**

LOL no offense, just the truth of your positions if I remember correctly. You believe in the legitimacy of government, no? I know you want government to be smaller but you still believe in government...which is statism.

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:10 pm**

^^^I modified my posts...well, I guess if Thomas Jefferson and John Adams were statists, then that's what I am too. I guess because I listen to Mark Levin so much and he calls the far left "statists" as in big government. It's okay AA...to each his own.

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:40 pm**

^^^I modified my posts...well, I guess if Thomas Jefferson and John Adams were statists, then that's what I am too. I guess because I listen to Mark Levin so much and he calls the far left "statists" as in big government. It's okay AA...to each his own.

Gotcha. Leftists are certainly statists but so are conservatives and even "big L" Libertarians (those who support the Libertarian Party). I just can't find a way to justify supporting the State on moral grounds.

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:49 pm**

The thing about anarchy IMO, is that the only place it would be successful is in heaven...I mean human nature is not something you can really change while here on earth...but MOST anarchists I know don't believe in God. Isn't that the definition of irony?

Actually, this criticism is even more successful when the nature of government is considered: government essentially gives a group of people the right to legally use aggression and coercion against citizens in order to enforce certain social norms. By supporting government, statists have pure faith that only "good people" will be elected to wield that power of aggression/coercion when, in fact, that very power does nothing but attract sociopaths who WANT to use the legal force of government to make decisions affecting other people.

The thing is this: If we knew all people were perfect, there'd be no need for government. But since we know that nobody is perfect, we dare not have government. I can't remember who said the quote but that's a paraphrase of it. Because here's the deal: government is legally allowed to use aggression and coercion against you. Since you KNOW that nobody is perfect and that there are plenty of evil people, why trust anyone with that power?

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:23 pm**

I just think it's funny that I couldn't disagree more with Slider on basic politics, but I am lock step with him on this one.

Good to know - there is hope for you yet.

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:44 am**

Robert LeFevre: "If men are good, you don't need government; if men are evil or ambivalent, you don't dare have one."

There is no rational or logical response that statists can give to that quote.

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:05 pm**

With no government, how do you propose that we build roads, build schools and teach our children, have police protection, have fire protection, etc?

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