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Is Goldman "Legally" Frontrunning Its Clients?
Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:41 am
by annarborgator
Legally is in quotes in the subject line because such a practice can only be "legal" under a rather creative definition of the word. Interesting post from Tyler Durden this morning over at
www.zerohedge.com, asking serious questions about a disclaimer Government Sachs includes in its 'Goldman 360' portal user agreement:
"Monitoring by GS: Your use of the products and services on this Web site may be monitored by GS, and that the resultant information may be used by GS for its internal business purposes (Durden's emphasis) or in accordance with the rules of any applicable regulatory or self-regulatory organization."
{. . .}
One second: by using Goldman 360 a client voluntarily allows Goldman to provide keystroke by keystroke data of everything the client does, even if that includes launching trades via REDI, to Goldman for the internal business purposes? The third thing everyone on Wall Street agrees on is that "internal business purposes" usually (and in Goldman's case, almost exclusively) means proprietary trading.
Are Goldman 360 clients (in)voluntarily signing off a release to be front ran by Goldman on any portal-based trade? Could Goldman please clarify just what "internal business purposes" means in the context of this overarching disclaimer, and also whether Goldman has ever actually used 360 submitted information in the decision making process of its prop trading desk? Lucas Van Pragg: the floor is yours.
http://www.zerohedge.com/node/12083
I'm sure there's nothing to worry about since GS is filled with
salt scourge of the earth kind of folks.
Is Goldman "Legally" Frontrunning Its Clients?
Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:35 pm
by radbag
c'mon.
you're utilizing their resources...they're entitled to get something in return...if you don't like it, use another service...use something more inferior or superior...there are alternatives just so you know...doesn't matter to GS...doesn't matter to anyone really.
Is Goldman "Legally" Frontrunning Its Clients?
Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:29 pm
by annarborgator
Not a surprising response...I wouldn't expect you to say anything bad about god.
Is Goldman "Legally" Frontrunning Its Clients?
Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:32 pm
by radbag
our website also monitors the users...if a girnomous amount of users are accessing research on oil and gas, reports will be sent to the analysts and the info is useful...maybe if the pattern persists, maybe we'll dedicate more resources to shoring up that part of the sector by hiring more analysts.
let's say a portfolio manager from Fidelity is doing so...that type of info is helpful...the salesman covering the account should know so that he can follow up...or at the very least, he should know so he can service his client better...it's efficient...if the client wishes not to be identified, he can go to another firms website or he can access the site with a bogus name or firm....either way, the draw of valuable information and resources are worth forgoing anonymity.
my former firm did it too...10s of reports produced that are user generated...to NOT track it would be stupid actually...why not analyze the data? knowledge is power.
there's really nothing huge about this.
Is Goldman "Legally" Frontrunning Its Clients?
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:29 am
by annarborgator
Redacted.
Is Goldman "Legally" Frontrunning Its Clients?
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:38 am
by annarborgator
Suffice it to say that I'll never trust an industry that primarily exists to make money for itself rather than me. The financial services industry doesn't take its fiduciary relationships seriously (something I take kinda seriously considering I'm about to be a lawyer soon) and they won't ever have the chance to steal from me on any grand scale. I'll never put myself at risk by trusting people who look out for themselves before they look out for me when their job is to look out for me. On top of that, they have no qualms about breaking the law if they either think they can get away with it clean or make more money by breaking the law than getting caught will cost them.
It is, without a doubt, the 2nd most corrupt industry in the world after government. And now that finance and government are one and the same, they're starting to corner the market. Fuck'em both.
Is Goldman "Legally" Frontrunning Its Clients?
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 8:58 am
by radbag
the oil and gas industry exists to make money for itself rather than you yet you'll buy gas to fuel your car or heat your home
the entertainment industry exists to make money for itself rather than you yet you'll go to the movies or you'll watch tv
the cattle industry exists to make money for itself rather than you yet you'll eat a steak or drink a milkshake
Is Goldman "Legally" Frontrunning Its Clients?
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:48 am
by annarborgator
The oil and gas industry exists to produce oil and gas.
The entertainment industry exists to entertain.
The cattle industry exists to produce the beef I know you enjoy so much.
Money is secondary to the primary good produced by each industry. The finance industry is a fallacy. It exists solely to produce paper wealth, which is ultimately useless in and of itself.
Is Goldman "Legally" Frontrunning Its Clients?
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:57 am
by radbag
c'mon bro....let's not kid ourselves.
oil and gas companies are buying other oil and gas companies because there's money to be made...not because they enjoy producing oil...
if there was no money in any of the industry's products or services, do you really think people would still stick around and do it? not likely and you know that.
Is Goldman "Legally" Frontrunning Its Clients?
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:05 am
by annarborgator
I'm not kidding anyone, least of all myself. Buying other oil and gas companies is not the primary purpose of owning or running an oil and gas company. Just try raising capital with the biz model consisting only of buying other companies...tough to do...it always would come down to: how effective are the companies you're going to buy at producing oil and gas?
We don't need money to produce things of value. In fact, it's likely a hindrance because it distracts us from more effective allocation of capital. There are only a few ways to create actual wealth...grow it, mine it, build it....paper wealth is not wealth.
I realize that you have to protect the viability of your industry, but telling me to not 'kid ourselves' and then acting like money is god and money is real wealth is just absurd. You're showing signs of stockholm syndrome bro. Don't let the captors get you.
Is Goldman "Legally" Frontrunning Its Clients?
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:15 pm
by radbag
it always would come down to: how effective are the companies you're going to buy at producing oil and gas?
and we want to know the answer to this because of why? because of how profitable they are???
Is Goldman "Legally" Frontrunning Its Clients?
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:34 pm
by annarborgator
Profits are only a measure of how effectively a company produces what they produce.
