The Back Alley Archives

Posted: **Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:49 pm**

Hey, can one of you insiders tell me about any concussions on the team? I just heard Will Hill got one. Bill got pissed about it because he met Will last year at the Under Armour game and he has worn nothing but Schutt Air Advantage helmets...he tried on the new Schutt Ion (super duper top notch on safety) and LOVED it...he said he was going to request one. Bill THOUGHT he had a good relationship with UF's Equip manager (he buys some of the girdles and stuff they use from Bill). He has on occassion bought a helmet from him if a kid requests it.

Bill also got hopeful before the season when this equip manager (an FSU grad by the way) called and discussed changing out some of their helmets like the deal that USF got...Bill was pretty hopeful about the prospect.

Cut to this season now and Bill sees every single player in Riddells...even ones that last year wore his helmets (with no problems). We suspect the equip manager got a deal he couldn't refuse from the Riddell rep, but of course we can't prove that.

Bill has shown documentation after documentation about the Riddell Revolution and what a piece of crap it is...but well, if they are wearing them on Sunday, they want to wear them on Saturday too...it's a constant battle...business is business.

But if you start seeing a bunch of concussions, you'll know why.

Posted: **Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:51 pm**

you really think the helmet is the problem?

Posted: **Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:44 am**

For concussions yes...not for all the other injuries though. Of course, you can get a concussion if hit hard enough in any sport no matter what headgear you're wearing but if you are getting a concussion in practice, it's likely that the helmet could have not provided adequate protection.

Concussions are damage to your head...the helmet is supposed to protect the head...do the math.

Posted: **Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:46 am**

I haven't heard anything about Hill and a concussion...I'm not 100% certain on this, but I believe only one person has missed time due to a concussion this fall.

hrug:

Posted: **Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:47 am**

Well that's good. Bill took the high road and wrote to the equip manager with just some other type business stuff and didn't mention anything. The mgr told him that Moody would be wearing the DNA (Schutt) this year...and then Bill reminded me that the same thing happened last year in that about three games in a bunch of the kids ended up having the Schutt helmets on...like Bubba, Cooper and some others.

I guess what bugs me most is that I would expect them to be more worried about having the safest helmets available on the market instead of ones that they know crack and they've had problems with...Penn State and WVU and a lot of the Pac 10 schools only use Schutt helmets because of their safety records. Oh well...

If you all hear of any concussions, please let me know. Although I know Bill keeps his eyes open for this stuff too.

Posted: **Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:54 am**

A number of other players have missed practice time due to nagging injuries. Meyer said the coaching staff pushed the first major scrimmage back a day to Wednesday because so many players were on the injury list Tuesday.

"We had nine guys who couldn't scrimmage that needed game reps," Meyer said.

One of those players is true freshman strong safety Will Hill, who was held out of practice for the past two days with a concussion. Meyer said Hill will be full-go for Wednesday's scrimmage. True sophomore cornerback Moses Jenkins also was held out the past two days with a concussion.

http://www.gatorsports.com/article/2008 ... /795203703

Posted: **Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:02 am**

Well, I stand corrected.

Posted: **Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:10 am**

a1 throws Ricky to the mat and hits him with an atomic elbow

Posted: **Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:02 pm**

Funny...Bill just was showing me some video of practice that he found...we were sort of amazed at how many of the Revolution helmets come flying off...out of eight videos there were 4 of them where a helmet or helmet(s) fell off. That would annoy me if I were a player I think.

Thanks a1 for the update!

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:06 am**

to me, i feel the greater impact that an equipment supplier might have on a player/coach and the decisions on equipment they select would be at the most earliest, most youngest of stages...pop warner? high school?

athletes are creatures of habit...superstitious bunch.

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:09 am**

Concussions are damage to your head...the helmet is supposed to protect the head...do the math.

acl's are damage to your knees....the kneepad is supposed to protect the knee...braces do a better job...why not wear braces before having to HAVE to wear one....YOU do the math whatever that means.

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:14 am**

Sorry if I sounded snotty Rad in saying do the math...that was not the tone I had when typing. I think saying a pad protecting the knee from an ACL tear is totally different...we're talking about muscles, pulls and sprains. When a concussion is basically a bruise on the brain caused by a sharp hit or even stop in motion when the brain bangs against the skull. A helmet is designed to absorb some of that force. And some helmets are designed better than others using more advanced foam and absorbing materials.

I need to find the link to the Modern Marvels show on the History Channel that talked about this.

In any case, sports equip companies spend a lot of money each year trying to design more safe helmets.

And as far as creatures of habit, you are correct...Schutt gets most of it's business from youth leagues, middle and high schools which is why Bill is always checking on where these guys are getting recruited so he can encourage them to tell their college equip manager what kind of helmet they prefer...the ones they've been using since they were a kid. But like I said, many colleges have multi-million dollar deals with these companies and a lot of time the kid has no choice but to use what they give them. This is Bill's battle day in and day out with trying to get college bids...most of his business is with the younger players...also, the parents of the younger player are MUCH more concerned with safety and will buy the top of the line helmet to protect their kid. The college parent trusts the school to make the right decisions for their kid's safety.

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:23 pm**

i'm just saying that a blow to the head will concuss anyone no matter what helmet you have on...it's just degrees of concuss that we're talking about.

as far as contracts out with colleges, doesn't schutt help bill with that? how does schutt leave that responsibility to bill if that?

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:03 pm**

^^^Yes, Schutt does help him...I honestly can't say much about Schutt vs. Riddell at the corporate level and how they get large contracts with NFL teams and college teams. After working with USF for a few years he was able to get Schutt to give them a great deal on trading in all their old Riddell helmets for new Schutt ones. Basically Bill gets his foot in the door, gets them interested and then Schutt tells them what they will do to lock the deal. I guess.

I agree with you about degrees of the concuss...but there are helmets that provide more protection from head injuries than others. But unless you are in the market for getting a helmet for you or your kid, I don't think you are interested in hearing a sales pitch.

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:50 pm**

i would love to hear it.

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:16 pm**

Sure...I'm bored at work so why not?

Here is one article I found about the DNA (which was the first one to use the Skydex pads that are used by the government in soldiers armour, etc.). One of the complaints about this DNA helmet is that is sort of big (to allow for more padding) and it makes you look a little like the alien from the Flinstones. So they used the same principle and padding and put it into their regular Air Advantage style helmet and call it the XP...this is quick becoming their best seller. This is the helmet that USF traded all their old helmets in for. Then there is an ION which is really their top of the line...so far the only complaint is the cost (obviously, it's the highest priced too) and they need to work on making the facemasks go on a little easier (for the equip managers who have to do the work...they like it simple).

Article on the DNA:

Schutt DNA: High-Tech Helmet
Hilary Strahota/USA Football

June 16, 2005

The long touted Army-Navy football rivalry game brought something new to the field in 2003. Players in Saturday's classic contest in Philadelphia will wear new football helmets.

Audio Video Image

The long touted Army-Navy football rivalry game brought something new to the field in 2003. Players in Saturday's classic contest in Philadelphia will wear new football helmets.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This new piece of equipment features the same shock-absorbing technology used to protect Army paratroopers and Navy SEALS. It marked the first major helmet change in two decades.
Schutt Sports Manufacturing, an Illinois based company, developed a helmet inspired by findings in an NFL-NCAA sponsored study in Ontario called the DNA.

Biokinetics and Associates conducted the study from NFL films documenting instances where players sustained concussions between 1996 and 2001. Based on their findings they built a new, more rounded helmet, which they call the DNA. More bulbous in appearance, this helmet sustains hits as glancing blows that are much less likely to cause concussions.

The DNA uses SKYDEX pads made of rows of twin hemispheres, similar to halves of a ball being squeezed together absorbing the force of a collision.

Larry Maddux, Schutt's research director, explains that the pads absorb the impact much better than a thicker layer of foam. Maddux affirms that the helmet then has more room to be fitted with traditional padding to make the helmet feel more comfortable.

This product was chosen as a 2004 Sports Product of the Year Finalist for its contribution to the game. The Schutt DNA was designed using not only NOCSAE test protocols, but also using new test protocols being developed by Biokinetics & Associates LTD. From research being conducted for the NFL.

The DNA helmet features:

Spherical shape to allow for glancing blows on helmet-to-helmet hits.
Treated with Ultra-FreshÂ® to inhibit growth of bacteria, mold and mildew that cause odors and stains.
Functional ventilation system allowing for airflow to keep players cool.
Rust resistant stainless steel hardware.
Specifically designed contours to provide a unique look and add corrugation to increase strength and durability.
SUREFITâ„¢ Slots to allow for inside fitting chin straps.
SKYDEXâ„¢ is smarter than foam. It does not break down like traditional helmet foam and remains consistent in performance after tens of thousands of impacts. This provides the player with a consistent fit all season long. SKYDEXâ„¢ is bacteria, mildew and fungal resistant.
SKYDEXâ„¢ does more with less. Impacts can be absorbed in less space allowing for more comfort. SKYDEXâ„¢ provides an optimum balance of cushioning, flexibility and weight.
Unique SUREFITâ„¢ air liner system incorporates soft comfortable fit foam to provide the player with unsurpassed comfort.

Here's a link talking about the Ion:

http://www.prnewsnow.com/Public_Release ... 18448.html

I've got more but my computer is freezing up...I'll be back.

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:25 pm**

Here's a good article because it talks about the strides that BOTH companies are making to make safer helmets...but I think it shows that right now Schutt is on the top end and Riddell is now in the position of trying to come up with something better. There is also quotes by the USF Equip Manager who is Bill's best customer...

Football Helmet Safety Stays Ahead Of The Game
July 22nd, 2008 • Related • Filed Under
Related Post
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Filed Under: Featured
Tags: Football Helmets • Riddell • Schutt Sports

Sixty years after helmets became standard equipment in the National Football League, two innovative manufacturers are jostling for dominance along the line of scrimmage.

Riddell and Schutt Sports are butting heads to establish a position of prominence in the field of helmet safety. From the high school level to NFL stadiums, these two manufacturers are using new designs and technology to compete for market share.

“In the world of commerce, competition is good because it forces people to develop better products,” Bucs offensive line coach Bill Muir said. “The same holds true in the field of helmet technology. It’s been a very responsible evolution on everyone’s part.”

Leather helmets were the equipment of choice on NFL fields until the 1950s, when facemasks were introduced and synthetic lightweight headgear came into vogue.

In 2002, Riddell released its Revolution model ($175), with a pad system designed to reduce the number and severity of concussions.

The computer-designed helmet featured a protective shell that extended to the jaw area, added protection on the side and included inflatable padding for a better fit.

“The Revolution helmet was a big leap forward,” said Thad Ide, Riddell’s vice president of research and development. “We’ve shown at the high school level that our newer helmets reduce the risk of concussions by 31 percent.”

Riddell has a licensing agreement with the NFL and Ide said 83 percent of NFL players wore Riddell helmets in 2007.

Schutt has made significant strides and the introduction of the ION4D and the Air XP helmets ($200) have created an industry buzz. Both models feature SKYDEX pads that act as shock absorbers.

“Schutt has come out with some helmets that have made real strides,” said Jeremy Lees, the University of South Florida’s football equipment manager. “The XP is a great helmet and it will definitely take the place of the traditional helmet. The ION4D also represents the next level, with the facemask integrated into the helmet.”

Schutt has utilized materials developed by the U.S. military, using cushioned pads built to minimize the impact of helmet-to-helmet hits that have caused serious head injuries at all levels of football.

“Using those pads is like using little tennis balls to dissipate the force,” said Glenn Beckmann, marketing and communications manager for Schutt Sports. “Ultimately, we all want the same thing - we want football to be as safe as possible for the players. Our research and development staff works hard with trainers and equipment managers to give them the best product possible.”

According to Beckmann, Schutt boasts a 60 percent helmet market share at the Division I level, including an exclusive agreement with the Bulls.

Both manufacturers emphasize the importance of a proper fit in maximizing the performance of each helmet.

In addressing concussion issues, Riddell began equipping its new helmet line with sensors that could measure the magnitude and direction of a collision. Data can be uploaded to a computer and analyzed in an effort to minimize the impact of violent collisions.

“The competition between Schutt and Riddell has made both companies better,” Lees said. “I’m sure Riddell’s going to come up with something in response to the Air XP.”

From integrated faceguards to visors and eyeshields, helmet technology has tried to keep pace with bigger, stronger bodies colliding at faster speeds.

“It’s been a constant evolution,” Muir said, “and the biggest difference between now and 30 years ago is that helmet manufacturers and the NFL are more safety conscious. Everyone knows that at the end of the day, it’s still a collision sport.

“Unfortunately, people are going to be put into certain situations, not by design but by consequence, and there will always be some injuries. But I feel confident moving forward that the things that can be eliminated or minimized will be.”

- Ira Kaufman, Tampa Tribune

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:40 pm**

what's the sales pitch? i don't wanna read it...i wanna hear it (well - i wanna read it in your words)

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:20 pm**

Have there been any independent studies done that compare the effectiveness of Schutt and Riddell helmets in preventing concussions?

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:28 pm**

what ever happened to rawlings and bike?

Posted: **Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:15 am**

Have there been any independent studies done that compare the effectiveness of Schutt and Riddell helmets in preventing concussions?

Nothing at an official level. There is a governing body that requires all helmet manufacturers to reach a minimum standard in new helmets and reconditioned ones and both companies comply with these standards of course. I know that Penn State did a study and found that the DNA (at the time was the only helmet using the SkyDex padding) stood up to the tests they did...I believe I remember reading that they used a machine to bang, pound and put pressure on the helmets and the DNA came out on top. But they didn't say what other helmets they tested and such...I believe that may be for some legal reasons but I'm not sure. After this testing, Penn State used nothing but the DNA's on every player.

WVU has done the same thing this year with the XP's. I could not find any other school that is using exclusively Riddell helmets claiming that they were the safest. Also, Rad...there still are Bike helmets and Adams helmets but they have a lot of other products so football helmets aren't the biggest part of their business.

Basically, the difference at this point in time (or until Riddell research catches up and finds something better) is the SkyDex material. Schutt has the exclusive rights to use this product in their helmets and so far there has not been a material found that works better.

Personally, I think Riddell is probably looking at making their helmets safer and the competition from Schutt is good. But really, until Schutt gets a little bigger and more used by big teams and NFL teams, Riddell really doesn't have the incentive to try and put out a better product. They are still bigger than Schutt and have more big name contracts and that is with their current product...it may be less superior safety-wise, but they are still selling and they meet the government requirements.

If and when Schutt's helmets start to out-sell and maybe they lose a few more big name schools or teams to Schutt, then Riddell will start a better attempt to make a better/safer product. Their top of the line Revolution is a decent helmet but one of the things they try to sell you on is that the jaw piece comes out farther. Of course, this does not help at all with concussions but could help with injuries to the jaw...that is if the helmets didn't crack all the time because that jaw extention causes pressure on the side of the helmet.

But, when a coach calls Bill complaining about the Revolutions they have, he usually offers to buy them back from them...gives them a discount on new Schutt helmets and then he takes the Revolutions and sells them on Ebay...the non-cracked ones of course.

Posted: **Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:42 pm**

That's it. I'm returning my Riddell and getting a Schutt!

[img]{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif[/img] Just messin with ya m7. It's kind of a shame that some kids like the Schutt product but can't use it because of their program.

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:04 pm**

mom - send me an offical gator or sooner helmet and i'll speak glowingly for schutt over riddell. [img]{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:44 pm**

Funny...Bill just got a Sooner helmet recently...I think he was giving it to some coach.