The Back Alley Archives

rad, what punishment does a crime like Joey's deserve in this context? Should we kick him out of the BA?

no - we should not kick him out of the BA...we should berate him for not handling his liquor [img]{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lmao.gif[/img]

but if he had stolen my passwords and read all of the intimate personal messages that katie and i have shared the last several weeks, then yeah - he'd be booted -- what do they call that? identity theft or some shit like that? is that federal?

lmao...i don't know shit about identity theft

It seems inherently unfair to hold someone to an arbitrarily high level of scrutiny due to their position in life. Regardless of status, every single one of those people is a human being whose brain works exactly like everyone else's. Their status does not make them "better" people--they don't make smarter decisions and make at least an equal amount of mistakes as the rest of us. They even have the same complicated lives all the rest of us have. In short, there isn't a meaningful reason for them to be considered differently situated. If they are just like everybody else, utilitarian social goals shouldn't take precedent over the rights of the individual to be punished justly and proportionately.

yeah - you're right...tis truly unfair...but tis certainly warranted considering you've got many, many people globally aspiring to be like you...so if you get off scott free, the message will be, cheat and steal and break the law, and be a vigilante - but be good enough to get away with it...if you don't and you get caught, you still have a 50/50 chance that you only get a slap on the wrist so by all accounts, the crime seems worth the time.

status doesn't make anyone better than the next...just makes you more exposed...and with exposure comes RESPONSIBILITY...i have friends who act responsible and they only have 3 friends....they are moral, they are mannered, they are proper, they are all about society and not about the individual....I look up to them and admire their honesty and their unwavering morale...they would NEVER break into a garage to get their car out...it's just too bad that they are not public figures/celebs/persons of status...they would be great role models...but i'll tell ya what, everyone they meet and get to know are touched and impressed with their politeness and virtue...they are doing their part even though they are not on the world stage...don't you think that those ON the world stage owe it to society to do the same? it aint fair but if you touch one life or affect one in either a positive or negative way, don't you think it's worth acting like you know you're a role model and that people are watching?

tebow gets it - he's reminded every day when he reads that sign "little eyes are watching you" that's posted in his house...is he wasting his time acting in a way in which he has to be extra careful because he's being watched, idolized, and admired? he obviously is because you're all saying they're normal people and they should not be judged differently....well last time I saw, i didn't have 90K people calling MY name just cause i did the chomp....i'd say he's different

Furthermore, isn't there a concern that capricious punishment of higher profile individuals in the long term could chill the population's aspirations to greater things? After all, if I know I'm going to be judged at an exponentially higher level when I reach a certain status, there's a good chance I'm gonna climb the ladder to the next lowest rung and then lose my motivation. Why would I want to ever take the risk of being punished so harshly by the system? I'm not perfect--I fuck up plenty, like everyone else. So I wouldn't want to even take that chance.

with fame comes price...i can't say it any easier.

as people chilling to aspire, i have more faith in the human makeup and human nature that each individual WANTS to be better than the next...it's really rather basic...i want a nicer car, i want a nicer home, i want a hotter wife, etc...people just don't think of the ramifications...i got a nicer car and home therefore i am susceptible to theft and breakin...i have a hotter wife and therefore i am susceptible to adultery...it happens...it goes with the territory...

you're gonna have to do better than that my idealistic good friend...i don't know one person who aspires NOT to be the best...those who do join a union i guess

The other thing you have to remember is that no system of judgment is infallible--there will be wrongfully convicted people. And those wrongfully convicted people will be punished at an exponentially high rate, most likely in ways that cannot be paid back in restitution. I believe such destruction of life is more harmful to society than any possible positive effects on other individuals and their decision-making. Why would rely on this method to shape decision making? Can we not teach people to use judgment in their lives without unjustly destroying the life of another human being who has the same rights as you and me? How do we even know the scope or extent of the expected effects on society? I don't see any way to quantify it.

I can see your logic, rad. I just can't believe you would let lives be destroyed to achieve perceived social progress.

agreed wholeheartedly...and this is the imperfection in the system that really, WE ALL have to deal with.

as for destroying lives, i think you're looking at it from the material point of view...so what if tj loses his scholarship, he gains manhood in accepting his faults and gains an opportunity to fix himself...same with vick losing all those dollars in endorsements and contracts...yes he's destroyed in that regard but his life is now enriched as he has fixed a part of his life which was against the law...he's acknowledged it, he's addressed it, he's being punished for it, and he's better for it all...he walks away with an opportunity to get BETTER, not worse...i bet he'll argue this experience has made him better...i'll bet that.

Here is my .02, my brother in law had his truck towed while we were in downtown Orlando a few years ago. We got to the lot late at night to get the car back and there was a warning against doing what Joiner did on a real big sign in real big letters. It even had the consequences on it( we ended up stealing the sign, dont ask we were drunk). It just seems something real stupid to do when you have something to lose and it seems no patience to wait for the guy to come back or whatever. I really don't feel bad for Tony because this could have all been avoided quite easily. I don't know it warrants all this attention because it is a small matter but the thing that kills me is the lack of the ability to make the right decision. He is 22 years old. Im going to get off my soap box now and good luck to the Gators this weekend in Baton Rouge

You knew you weren't supposed to take the sign, but you did it anyway. You made a mistake and did something dumb.

Sounds familiar...

joe was more careful in his vandalizing and he did it in a way in which he would not get caught...i give him more credit than tj because he didn't think things out...simply - joe was successful, tj was not...therefore, joe is better than tj

REMEMBER - it's only cheating if you get caught...

i meant destroyed lives of the wrongfully convicted folks who get held to that higher standard.

class is over...i'll definitely respond with more later when i get home...good convo....i think you are more interested in society and i am more interested in the individual, in the end, but we'll figure it out.

^^^ indeed - i hope you know that i respect you and your ideas and enjoy the banter...

i'm just an argumentative fool but at the end of the day, i love all y'all....i hope i'm not out staying my welcome with these long and wordy posts.

just passionate about society and where that's heading and equally just kinda bored.

...i don't know one person who aspires NOT to be the best...those who do join a union i guess

Rad, this is a nice thought, but there are a lot of people totally content with being mediocre...may I remind you of the website we all just abandoned?

I wrote you at one point (I think it was in my email to you) that I got frustrated with my daughter because she was totally content with getting a B on her first real test in school. I was horrified because when I was a kid if I didn't get an A, I cried. But someone, actually I think it was Vanders, said that her competitive streak might just come later on...or it might not come at all. Some people don't feel the need to be the BEST. I hope my kids aren't in that group, because I'm not sure how I'll deal with that, but it could happen.

^^^ indeed - i hope you know that i respect you and your ideas and enjoy the banter...

i'm just an argumentative fool but at the end of the day, i love all y'all....i hope i'm not out staying my welcome with these long and wordy posts.

just passionate about society and where that's heading and equally just kinda bored.

without a doubt brother.

...i don't know one person who aspires NOT to be the best...those who do join a union i guess

Rad, this is a nice thought, but there are a lot of people totally content with being mediocre...may I remind you of the website we all just abandoned?

I wrote you at one point (I think it was in my email to you) that I got frustrated with my daughter because she was totally content with getting a B on her first real test in school. I was horrified because when I was a kid if I didn't get an A, I cried. But someone, actually I think it was Vanders, said that her competitive streak might just come later on...or it might not come at all. Some people don't feel the need to be the BEST. I hope my kids aren't in that group, because I'm not sure how I'll deal with that, but it could happen.

does lanie play video games? does she play hide and go seek? does she run or race? does she play any of those internet games that my kids like to play? does she play tic tac toe? does she thumb wrestle? does she play rock-paper-scissors?

if she does any of that, she's competitive and she wants to win.

yeah - you're right...tis truly unfair...but tis certainly warranted considering you've got many, many people globally aspiring to be like you...so if you get off scott free, the message will be, cheat and steal and break the law, and be a vigilante - but be good enough to get away with it...if you don't and you get caught, you still have a 50/50 chance that you only get a slap on the wrist so by all accounts, the crime seems worth the time.

a couple quick thoughts here:

(1) I'm not sure how the behavior of other people, not related to an offender or her crime, can ever justify the unfair treatment of said offender by the criminal system. I think you may believe they brought it on themselves, or chose, that path in life when they entered the public eye. They knew what they were getting into and that justifies the disparate treatment. However, the offender cannot control the behavior of other people. Unless she expressly and specifically labels herself an *actual* role model and calls for people to look up to her, how can she be held responsible for people treating her as a role model? (for clarification: she's 'responsible' because her treatment by the system changes)

(2) I don't think people should get off scott free if they are caught breaking the law. I've never advocated that idea. I simply believe they should be treated like everyone else.

with fame comes price...i can't say it any easier.

as people chilling to aspire, i have more faith in the human makeup and human nature that each individual WANTS to be better than the next...it's really rather basic...i want a nicer car, i want a nicer home, i want a hotter wife, etc...people just don't think of the ramifications...i got a nicer car and home therefore i am susceptible to theft and breakin...i have a hotter wife and therefore i am susceptible to adultery...it happens...it goes with the territory...

you're gonna have to do better than that my idealistic good friend...i don't know one person who aspires NOT to be the best...those who do join a union i guess

The idea of "best" is completely personal to each human being. In your system, IMHO, being average would be best for me. So, in a way, you might be right--everyone probably feels like they are chasing "best". The only problem? If I lived under your rule, by your measurements of "best", I would actually aspire to be slightly less prominent/successful than the minimum standard of fame/success that would kick me up into the higher crime bracket.

agreed wholeheartedly...and this is the imperfection in the system that really, WE ALL have to deal with.

as for destroying lives, i think you're looking at it from the material point of view...so what if tj loses his scholarship, he gains manhood in accepting his faults and gains an opportunity to fix himself...same with vick losing all those dollars in endorsements and contracts...yes he's destroyed in that regard but his life is now enriched as he has fixed a part of his life which was against the law...he's acknowledged it, he's addressed it, he's being punished for it, and he's better for it all...he walks away with an opportunity to get BETTER, not worse...i bet he'll argue this experience has made him better...i'll bet that.

Every new experience teaches us something. And, IMHO, in that situation can actually cut both ways. If you always get away with shit by begging forgiveness and one time they drop the hammer, then you will learn something. On the other hand, if you ALWAYS get caught and penalized harshly, sometimes you can learn as much or more if someone actually shows you that mercy.

And yes, I know Tony has been "in trouble" before but to be honest I don't know the details of that situation so I can't begin to determine if we should think of him as a sort of repeat offender. I'm slow to judge like that.

This has been a great thread....see rad...the positive effects happen to society even before punishment is handed out, so why rely so heavily on the punishment to seal the deal? Of course, we are two fine upstanding gentlemen who take the time to think about these things.

I think wanting to win at a game is different than wanting to be the BEST at something (your job, school, etc.). Although they both CAN involve competitiveness, they don't have to. IMO. And I agree...great thread!

yeah - you're right...tis truly unfair...but tis certainly warranted considering you've got many, many people globally aspiring to be like you...so if you get off scott free, the message will be, cheat and steal and break the law, and be a vigilante - but be good enough to get away with it...if you don't and you get caught, you still have a 50/50 chance that you only get a slap on the wrist so by all accounts, the crime seems worth the time.

a couple quick thoughts here:

(1) I'm not sure how the behavior of other people, not related to an offender or her crime, can ever justify the unfair treatment of said offender by the criminal system. I think you may believe they brought it on themselves, or chose, that path in life when they entered the public eye. They knew what they were getting into and that justifies the disparate treatment. However, the offender cannot control the behavior of other people. Unless she expressly and specifically labels herself an *actual* role model and calls for people to look up to her, how can she be held responsible for people treating her as a role model? (for clarification: she's 'responsible' because her treatment by the system changes)

(2) I don't think people should get off scott free if they are caught breaking the law. I've never advocated that idea. I simply believe they should be treated like everyone else.

i think we're making it more complicated than we have to really...a person is either a) a public figure b) not a public figure

if you are (a), chances are, you will be judged, you will be scrutinized, you will be idolized, you will be in demand, you will be targeted by more (maybe a heckuva alot more) than those who are (b)

having said that, (a)'s life and it's path and it's direction and it's decisions greatly affect more people than (b)

therefore (a)'s outcomes and happenstances have more of a negative/positive force on lives than (b)

joey can steal a sign, get thrown in the klink and nobody gives a fuck...tj can do the same thing and all of a sudden, people are talking....conversely, joey scores a touchdown for the lexington canaries of the lexington flag football league and nobody west of louisville gave a fuck...tj does the same thing on saturday and people in hawaii are talking

so you have to admit what i'm saying is true - the public figure's actions are praised more and are vilified more...you don't like the accolades, become a missionary in the philippines, have a son, and teach him how to throw lefty...you wanna be a superstar and drive nice cars and hang out at nice clubs and date models, go ahead and do it - but just remember, little eyes are watching and it just goes with the territory...with the fame and the glory comes RESPONSIBILITY and you have to admit that.

as for public figures getting treated like everyone else, i believe they should too. i am in agreement with that. if the last 20 people who trespassed did not get arrested, the million dollar question should be, SHOULD THEY HAVE BEEN? or maybe the trillion dollar question should be, COULD THEY HAVE BEEN? if the answer is yes to ANY of the 20, than mr joiner should/could have been arrested too...so i don't know what the point then would be...i fear that the hangup is, tj got arrested because he is a high profile athlete...end of story...none of his co-perps got cuffed like he did so he's being treated unfairly....well i argue - if he trespassed and he violated a law, he should be arrested...end of story...doesn't matter what happened to the other guys and doesn't matter that he's a high profile public figure...facts are the facts, he violated a law and he should be punished...end of story.

now you're the lawyer aa, i am not...i know it is your job to defend and represent....but i gotta say, the more people defend and excuse and reason and theorize why he broke the law, i gotta admit - it pisses me the fuck off....cause he's wrong and he should just say so (i think he did though when he told whoever he told on the phone that he was going to jail)...maybe that's why mike vick said what he said and how he said it at his press conference...the more you defend and theorize and reason why he did the things he did, he comes off as a fucking asshole punk who thinks he's above the law and all the law abiding citizens look like schmucks cause they're too law abiding and too goody two shoe'd to ever finish first....sounds like a rant because it is...if everyone thought for a moment about the consequences of their actions, the world would be a better place and i know no other way to teach that than show what happens to those who don't give a fuck.

with fame comes price...i can't say it any easier.

as people chilling to aspire, i have more faith in the human makeup and human nature that each individual WANTS to be better than the next...it's really rather basic...i want a nicer car, i want a nicer home, i want a hotter wife, etc...people just don't think of the ramifications...i got a nicer car and home therefore i am susceptible to theft and breakin...i have a hotter wife and therefore i am susceptible to adultery...it happens...it goes with the territory...

you're gonna have to do better than that my idealistic good friend...i don't know one person who aspires NOT to be the best...those who do join a union i guess

The idea of "best" is completely personal to each human being. In your system, IMHO, being average would be best for me. So, in a way, you might be right--everyone probably feels like they are chasing "best". The only problem? If I lived under your rule, by your measurements of "best", I would actually aspire to be slightly less prominent/successful than the minimum standard of fame/success that would kick me up into the higher crime bracket.

i acknowledge your position and won't comment any further on that other than to say that there is nothing wrong with that mindset...i can either be a big fish in the little pond or the little fish in the big pond.

in the first scenario, i am king and i rule the roost...all the other fish look to me for guidance and what i do matters more than what the others do...i receive the accolades from the successes, and i receive the harsh criticisms from the failures...the extreme regard goes with being the big fish in the little pond and it is much more easier to be heard and be discovered here because the pond is so small....my IMPACT affects all in this pond.

in the second scenario, i am content being one of the masses and it suits me just fine...true - i will not ever receive the recognition that the same sized fish gets in a smaller pond but i do not get the negative criticisms either...i am perfectly content in this big pond and if things go awry for me here, i just swim to the other side of the pond...one thing is for sure, i am just a number here and it is very difficult for me to differentiate myself from the rest of the school....the pond is massive and i like it like that....i could fuck up and no one would give a shit...hardly gets noticed...aint that great?

who is tony joiner? who is AA?

agreed wholeheartedly...and this is the imperfection in the system that really, WE ALL have to deal with.

as for destroying lives, i think you're looking at it from the material point of view...so what if tj loses his scholarship, he gains manhood in accepting his faults and gains an opportunity to fix himself...same with vick losing all those dollars in endorsements and contracts...yes he's destroyed in that regard but his life is now enriched as he has fixed a part of his life which was against the law...he's acknowledged it, he's addressed it, he's being punished for it, and he's better for it all...he walks away with an opportunity to get BETTER, not worse...i bet he'll argue this experience has made him better...i'll bet that.

Every new experience teaches us something. And, IMHO, in that situation can actually cut both ways. If you always get away with shit by begging forgiveness and one time they drop the hammer, then you will learn something. On the other hand, if you ALWAYS get caught and penalized harshly, sometimes you can learn as much or more if someone actually shows you that mercy.

And yes, I know Tony has been "in trouble" before but to be honest I don't know the details of that situation so I can't begin to determine if we should think of him as a sort of repeat offender. I'm slow to judge like that.

This has been a great thread....see rad...the positive effects happen to society even before punishment is handed out, so why rely so heavily on the punishment to seal the deal? Of course, we are two fine upstanding gentlemen who take the time to think about these things.

harsh vs merciful - good point and i agree that there are two ways to go about teaching lessons...if we are in agreement, i think the only way you can properly assign method of lesson is to bring in ones background and history....repeat offenders can't be treated the same as first time offenders...so i don't know exactly what mr joiners history is but we ALL know that he was shown mercy by the coach meyer already...he was shown mercy by shelly meyer already....the gator nation has shown him mercy as well by accepting him back as a person who learned his lesson and is now on the straight and narrow...are we suggesting he should be given mercy again? are we to say twice, three times, ten times, a million times of mercy will be affective in teaching mr joiner more lessons? i think not...

The "why" of the offense always matters to me...when I have less than adequate information to understand the "why" all I can do is wonder. I try my best to not jump to many conclusions. I've landed on too many rocks that gave way beneath my feet. That's why I postulate and brainstorm possibilities.

And I do admit--I feel I'm much more of a defense attorney at heart than a prosecutor.

I think wanting to win at a game is different than wanting to be the BEST at something (your job, school, etc.). Although they both CAN involve competitiveness, they don't have to. IMO. And I agree...great thread!

i don't arm wrestle cause i lack arm strength...and i don't play craps because i don't know the rules very well.

what were we saying? oh yeah - great thread...i'm such an asshole.

The "why" of the offense always matters to me...when I have less than adequate information to understand the "why" all I can do is wonder. I try my best to not jump to many conclusions. I've landed on too many rocks that gave way beneath my feet. That's why I postulate and brainstorm possibilities.

And I do admit--I feel I'm much more of a defense attorney at heart than a prosecutor.

and you're a good defense attorney at that i'll say...no one i want more than you defending me cause you got your shit together bro.

Hey Rad, total tangent..well, sort of still on topic. What about the girl from High School Musical that had a nude picture get out on the internet. She has LOTS of little eyes watching her. Do you think Disney should have let her go because her lack of good judgement and trusting the wrong person?

In my opinion, only if Disney had let her go would it have hurt those little eyes. I don't think many kids even know about it, but they sure would have if they replaced her in HSM3. But maybe because what she did wasn't really illegal, it's not the same thing? (in your opinion?). Or because it's a girl posing nude the rules just get thrown out the window in the Rad book of law.??? [img]{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif[/img]

^^^it's bad publicity...the public opinion in many ways is the ultimate judge.

did they fire her? i don't even know the outcome to that.

if they did, they were right to fire her...her target audience are pre-teens who are impressionable and very easily swayed...disney did the right thing if they did.

if they didn't, they are jokes who have no moral obligation to their fans, their target audience and their parents....money won out there and if that is the case, i will sell my disney stock tomorrow.

and you're a good defense attorney at that i'll say...no one i want more than you defending me cause you got your shit together bro.

Thanks man, I appreciate that. There's two things a degree in philosophy will definitely teach you to do: break down arguments into their elements and attack the elements wherever possible.

Maybe one of these days I will make a decent defense attorney. It's not necessarily in my plan right now but who knows what I'll end up doing.

^^^it's bad publicity...the public opinion in many ways is the ultimate judge.

did they fire her? i don't even know the outcome to that.

if they did, they were right to fire her...her target audience are pre-teens who are impressionable and very easily swayed...disney did the right thing if they did.

if they didn't, they are jokes who have no moral obligation to their fans, their target audience and their parents....money won out there and if that is the case, i will sell my disney stock tomorrow.

Sell your stock my friend...they kept her. See my point of view is HOW would little kids find out about it in the first place? You gonna show it to your kids? If they got rid of her, then these little eyes would most definitely have found out about it and been destroyed...well, that's a strong word, but you know what I mean.

And in her case, she is an adult, and did nothing illegal. She took a private picture that was meant for the eyes of her boyfriend only, but someone betrayed her trust and put it on the web. HOW does that possibly warrant ruining her career? I do think you're a bit harsh Rad.

But honestly, this sort of thing is exactly why I can't stand it that my kids OR any kids look at celebrities and athletes as role models. People are imperfect and when we put them up on these pedistals they will almost always fail you...no one is perfect...we all make mistakes. There has only been one living person who was perfect (in my belief anyway) and he is really the only one that you can look at as being flawless.

And after this long thread, I know what you're going to say...yes, people will make mistakes but it's all in how they take their medicine. If they "man up" and take it, admit it, it's fine. But anyone who cares about their career and their future is going to want to fight and do whatever they have to save it. I don't think that means they aren't manning up...it just means that they are dealing with things in the only human imperfect way they know how to.

I'm done now too. It's a good thing we are friends on a message board Rad becasue I would be letting you down every day if you saw me every day. And I would be miserable about it.