rad, what punishment does a crime like Joey's deserve in this context? Should we kick him out of the BA?
It seems inherently unfair to hold someone to an arbitrarily high level of scrutiny due to their position in life. Regardless of status, every single one of those people is a human being whose brain works exactly like everyone else's. Their status does not make them "better" people--they don't make smarter decisions and make at least an equal amount of mistakes as the rest of us. They even have the same complicated lives all the rest of us have. In short, there isn't a meaningful reason for them to be considered differently situated. If they are just like everybody else, utilitarian social goals shouldn't take precedent over the rights of the individual to be punished justly and proportionately.
Furthermore, isn't there a concern that capricious punishment of higher profile individuals in the long term could chill the population's aspirations to greater things? After all, if I know I'm going to be judged at an exponentially higher level when I reach a certain status, there's a good chance I'm gonna climb the ladder to the next lowest rung and then lose my motivation. Why would I want to ever take the risk of being punished so harshly by the system? I'm not perfect--I fuck up plenty, like everyone else. So I wouldn't want to even take that chance.
The other thing you have to remember is that no system of judgment is infallible--there will be wrongfully convicted people. And those wrongfully convicted people will be punished at an exponentially high rate, most likely in ways that cannot be paid back in restitution. I believe such destruction of life is more harmful to society than any possible positive effects on other individuals and their decision-making. Why would rely on this method to shape decision making? Can we not teach people to use judgment in their lives without unjustly destroying the life of another human being who has the same rights as you and me? How do we even know the scope or extent of the expected effects on society? I don't see any way to quantify it.
I can see your logic, rad. I just can't believe you would let lives be destroyed to achieve perceived social progress.
Here is my .02, my brother in law had his truck towed while we were in downtown Orlando a few years ago. We got to the lot late at night to get the car back and there was a warning against doing what Joiner did on a real big sign in real big letters. It even had the consequences on it( we ended up stealing the sign, dont ask we were drunk). It just seems something real stupid to do when you have something to lose and it seems no patience to wait for the guy to come back or whatever. I really don't feel bad for Tony because this could have all been avoided quite easily. I don't know it warrants all this attention because it is a small matter but the thing that kills me is the lack of the ability to make the right decision. He is 22 years old. Im going to get off my soap box now and good luck to the Gators this weekend in Baton Rouge
You knew you weren't supposed to take the sign, but you did it anyway. You made a mistake and did something dumb.
Sounds familiar...
...i don't know one person who aspires NOT to be the best...those who do join a union i guess
^^^ indeed - i hope you know that i respect you and your ideas and enjoy the banter...
i'm just an argumentative fool but at the end of the day, i love all y'all....i hope i'm not out staying my welcome with these long and wordy posts.
just passionate about society and where that's heading and equally just kinda bored.
...i don't know one person who aspires NOT to be the best...those who do join a union i guess
Rad, this is a nice thought, but there are a lot of people totally content with being mediocre...may I remind you of the website we all just abandoned?
I wrote you at one point (I think it was in my email to you) that I got frustrated with my daughter because she was totally content with getting a B on her first real test in school. I was horrified because when I was a kid if I didn't get an A, I cried. But someone, actually I think it was Vanders, said that her competitive streak might just come later on...or it might not come at all. Some people don't feel the need to be the BEST. I hope my kids aren't in that group, because I'm not sure how I'll deal with that, but it could happen.
yeah - you're right...tis truly unfair...but tis certainly warranted considering you've got many, many people globally aspiring to be like you...so if you get off scott free, the message will be, cheat and steal and break the law, and be a vigilante - but be good enough to get away with it...if you don't and you get caught, you still have a 50/50 chance that you only get a slap on the wrist so by all accounts, the crime seems worth the time.
with fame comes price...i can't say it any easier.
as people chilling to aspire, i have more faith in the human makeup and human nature that each individual WANTS to be better than the next...it's really rather basic...i want a nicer car, i want a nicer home, i want a hotter wife, etc...people just don't think of the ramifications...i got a nicer car and home therefore i am susceptible to theft and breakin...i have a hotter wife and therefore i am susceptible to adultery...it happens...it goes with the territory...
you're gonna have to do better than that my idealistic good friend...i don't know one person who aspires NOT to be the best...those who do join a union i guess
agreed wholeheartedly...and this is the imperfection in the system that really, WE ALL have to deal with.
as for destroying lives, i think you're looking at it from the material point of view...so what if tj loses his scholarship, he gains manhood in accepting his faults and gains an opportunity to fix himself...same with vick losing all those dollars in endorsements and contracts...yes he's destroyed in that regard but his life is now enriched as he has fixed a part of his life which was against the law...he's acknowledged it, he's addressed it, he's being punished for it, and he's better for it all...he walks away with an opportunity to get BETTER, not worse...i bet he'll argue this experience has made him better...i'll bet that.
yeah - you're right...tis truly unfair...but tis certainly warranted considering you've got many, many people globally aspiring to be like you...so if you get off scott free, the message will be, cheat and steal and break the law, and be a vigilante - but be good enough to get away with it...if you don't and you get caught, you still have a 50/50 chance that you only get a slap on the wrist so by all accounts, the crime seems worth the time.
a couple quick thoughts here:
(1) I'm not sure how the behavior of other people, not related to an offender or her crime, can ever justify the unfair treatment of said offender by the criminal system. I think you may believe they brought it on themselves, or chose, that path in life when they entered the public eye. They knew what they were getting into and that justifies the disparate treatment. However, the offender cannot control the behavior of other people. Unless she expressly and specifically labels herself an *actual* role model and calls for people to look up to her, how can she be held responsible for people treating her as a role model? (for clarification: she's 'responsible' because her treatment by the system changes)
(2) I don't think people should get off scott free if they are caught breaking the law. I've never advocated that idea. I simply believe they should be treated like everyone else.
with fame comes price...i can't say it any easier.
as people chilling to aspire, i have more faith in the human makeup and human nature that each individual WANTS to be better than the next...it's really rather basic...i want a nicer car, i want a nicer home, i want a hotter wife, etc...people just don't think of the ramifications...i got a nicer car and home therefore i am susceptible to theft and breakin...i have a hotter wife and therefore i am susceptible to adultery...it happens...it goes with the territory...
you're gonna have to do better than that my idealistic good friend...i don't know one person who aspires NOT to be the best...those who do join a union i guess
The idea of "best" is completely personal to each human being. In your system, IMHO, being average would be best for me. So, in a way, you might be right--everyone probably feels like they are chasing "best". The only problem? If I lived under your rule, by your measurements of "best", I would actually aspire to be slightly less prominent/successful than the minimum standard of fame/success that would kick me up into the higher crime bracket.
agreed wholeheartedly...and this is the imperfection in the system that really, WE ALL have to deal with.
as for destroying lives, i think you're looking at it from the material point of view...so what if tj loses his scholarship, he gains manhood in accepting his faults and gains an opportunity to fix himself...same with vick losing all those dollars in endorsements and contracts...yes he's destroyed in that regard but his life is now enriched as he has fixed a part of his life which was against the law...he's acknowledged it, he's addressed it, he's being punished for it, and he's better for it all...he walks away with an opportunity to get BETTER, not worse...i bet he'll argue this experience has made him better...i'll bet that.
Every new experience teaches us something. And, IMHO, in that situation can actually cut both ways. If you always get away with shit by begging forgiveness and one time they drop the hammer, then you will learn something. On the other hand, if you ALWAYS get caught and penalized harshly, sometimes you can learn as much or more if someone actually shows you that mercy.
And yes, I know Tony has been "in trouble" before but to be honest I don't know the details of that situation so I can't begin to determine if we should think of him as a sort of repeat offender. I'm slow to judge like that.
This has been a great thread....see rad...the positive effects happen to society even before punishment is handed out, so why rely so heavily on the punishment to seal the deal? Of course, we are two fine upstanding gentlemen who take the time to think about these things.
I think wanting to win at a game is different than wanting to be the BEST at something (your job, school, etc.). Although they both CAN involve competitiveness, they don't have to. IMO. And I agree...great thread!
The "why" of the offense always matters to me...when I have less than adequate information to understand the "why" all I can do is wonder. I try my best to not jump to many conclusions. I've landed on too many rocks that gave way beneath my feet. That's why I postulate and brainstorm possibilities.
And I do admit--I feel I'm much more of a defense attorney at heart than a prosecutor.
and you're a good defense attorney at that i'll say...no one i want more than you defending me cause you got your shit together bro.
^^^it's bad publicity...the public opinion in many ways is the ultimate judge.
did they fire her? i don't even know the outcome to that.
if they did, they were right to fire her...her target audience are pre-teens who are impressionable and very easily swayed...disney did the right thing if they did.
if they didn't, they are jokes who have no moral obligation to their fans, their target audience and their parents....money won out there and if that is the case, i will sell my disney stock tomorrow.