Would you trust a pig with the ability to torture...

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:35 pm

At the touch of a button? Cops should NOT be allowed to carry torture devices that work at a distance.

The research arm of the US Department of Justice is working on two portable non-lethal weapons that inflict pain from a distance using beams of laser light or microwaves, with the intention of putting them into the hands of police to subdue suspects.

The two devices under development by the civilian National Institute of Justice both build on knowledge gained from the Pentagon's controversial Active Denial System (ADS) - first demonstrated in public last year, which uses a 2-metre beam of short microwaves to heat up the outer layer of a person's skin and cause pain.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16339-us-police-could-get-pain-beam-weapons.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news

After years of testing, the Active Denial System -- the pain ray which drives off rioters with a microwave-like beam -- could finally have its day. The Army is buying five of the truck-mounted systems for $25 million. But the energy weapon may face new hurdles, before it's shipped off to the battlefield; a new report details how the supposedly non-lethal blaster could be turned into a flesh-frying killer.

The contract for the pain ray trucks is "expected to be awarded by year's end," Aviation Week notes. "A year after the contract is signed, the combination vehicle/weapons will start be fielded at the rate of one per month."

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/10/army-ordering-p.html#previouspost

IHateUGAlyDawgs · Post by **IHateUGAlyDawgs** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:32 pm

you mean like a taser?

I'm all for it.

Come look at the cocksuckers in the county where I work, AA, and you'll probably change your tune. I'm surprised cops don't beat the fuck out of these people more often. Most of the time, with these assholes, I'd applaud it.

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:42 pm

Oh believe me I'm well aware of the trash that exists in society. I just don't see the need for such "non lethal" weapons--they allow cops to inflict pain from great distances, allowing them to see citizens as less and less human. Where's the need for this hater? Are you saying you support a broad policy of torturing any and all potential law breakers? Or just the ones who seem like assholes or what? I don't understand what you're advocating. This would make it way too simple to unceremoniously squash any public dissent in the form of legal assemblies and protests.

p.s. Dehumanizing alleged criminals is a favorite pastime of totalitarian regimes.

IHateUGAlyDawgs · Post by **IHateUGAlyDawgs** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:45 pm

I'm not advocating the use to stop legal activities (protests or otherwise). I am advocating the use of such devices to quash criminals who are resisting their proper arrest/removal from scene - especially if violent or if they show potential for imminent violence.

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:49 pm

The risk for abuse is larger than you would imagine, but that's just my opinion. To each his own.

IHateUGAlyDawgs · Post by **IHateUGAlyDawgs** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:05 pm

risk worth reward.

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:49 am

I'm not sure how inflicting pain on another human being is reward but that's just me.

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:12 pm

you mean like a taser?

Yes, exactly like a taser. And that's the point:

They are marketed as non-lethal weapons that allow police to capture suspects or criminals without causing any permanent harm.

Former New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani and businessman Bernard Kerik made millions selling the idea to police departments across the country.

But Tasers have killed more than 400 people in the United States and Canada since 2001, according to a new study commissioned by the Canadian Broadcasting Corp.

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Sold_as_nonlethal_Tasers_killed_400_1213.html

IHateUGAlyDawgs · Post by **IHateUGAlyDawgs** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:12 pm

don't act like an asshole...won't get tased.

radbag · Post by **radbag** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:18 pm

i've always respected the cops whether i was in the wrong or walking with my 5 year old kid...i always nod and smile and greet them with a 'good morning' or what have you...i just don't understand the attitude the public takes towards the cops when they puff their chests out and almost avoid moving to the side to let the cops pass them on the sidewalk...almost provoking them...why? cause you have the right to do so? stupid.

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:25 pm

I show respect too rad, out of sheer terror.

radbag · Post by **radbag** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:36 pm

mission accomplished then right?

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:08 pm

So terrorism is good if it's our own government terrorizing us? That's an interesting take.

Tipmoose · Post by **Tipmoose** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:58 pm

Sounds to me like ANY organization tasked with enforcing a set of laws would make you uncomfortable...so, lets just do away with all of them and see if you feel any better about things.

Personally, I've never had a single problem with a cop. Ever. And to be honest, I would much rather have the cops able to use those weapons than the anarchists out there who think its 'cool' to torch auto dealerships and new homes.

IHateUGAlyDawgs · Post by **IHateUGAlyDawgs** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:04 pm

I show respect too rad, out of sheer terror.

Sorry, but I'm calling BS here. I highly doubt that you've ever been unreasonably harassed by any police officer, ever, for anything more than a speeding ticket.

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:56 pm

I don't believe personal experience is the only externality capable of creating terror. I have a fundamental problem giving away the amount of power we bestow upon the power structure.

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:00 pm

Sounds to me like ANY organization tasked with enforcing a set of laws would make you uncomfortable...so, lets just do away with all of them and see if you feel any better about things.

Personally, I've never had a single problem with a cop. Ever. And to be honest, I would much rather have the cops able to use those weapons than the anarchists out there who think its 'cool' to torch auto dealerships and new homes.

Funny you mention anarchists. I'm probably as close to being an anarchist as anyone I know. I don't believe the government owes me anything and I expect them to do nothing for me. When I have my own place I won't expect trash pickup, I won't expect fire protection and I won't expect police protection. I have a machete stored conveniently in my living room for handy access and I know my house better than anyone who would wish to do me harm. Inside 10 feet I win any combat situation. When I get out of school I will have a loaded street howitzer (shotgun) stored for quick access as well as at least one handgun in my bedroom.

For me personally, given my capabilities, the government does more to limit my potential than it does to provide for my well-being.

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:07 pm

So, when it comes down to it, what reward do I get in exchange for giving up my god given right to freedom? Nothing? So that would make me a sucker if I believed in the system and fully supported it, no?

I just don't understand what y'all think the government provides me that I can't provide for myself. Please, do explain.

Tipmoose · Post by **Tipmoose** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:39 pm

Wow...ummm...well...for one thing, they can provide a more or less civilized framework of social norms and conventions designed to maximize enjoyment of life for all of those governed. They also provide a system of deterrence and punishment when those conventions are broken.

In a lawless society, which is what it appears you are advocating, those who can take what they want, will do so. Your skill at defending your home will be pointless when I set fire to it, for example. And I will be much more likely to do so, if I know that no one will be chasing after me for it.

Moreover, those who wish more power and personal gain will form de facto 'ultra local governments' (or gangs), and those gangs will morph into larger scale factions, and eventually you just get back to an even worse situation than what you have right now.

IHateUGAlyDawgs · Post by **IHateUGAlyDawgs** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:21 am

AA, how about the roads you travel on? You going to maintain those yourself? You going to provide your own electricity? running water? collect and deliver your own mail?

The government is more than just the police. The police are there to ensure that what is there is being used properly. It's unbelievable that this really has to be explained as to what the government provides for you. For all your proclamations of thinking outside the box, you tend to think about what's inside one little box (you and your home). Quite frankly, your disdain for the police is alarming - especially for someone who is going to be an officer of the court.

DocZaius · Post by **DocZaius** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:13 am

I don't have a problem with non-lethal yet painful weaponry. If you take those kinds of weapons away, the police will just use their billy clubs.

The police do have guidelines on use-of-force, which are usually followed. They don't go out there and tase folks just for the hell of it.

OK, well, sometimes they do, but it's better than beating them up and it's safer for both the officer and the target.

radbag · Post by **radbag** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:41 am

AA - imagine watching football without referees...imagine if the game were left to the athletes to call penalties on themselves....better yet....imagine a hockey game without refs.

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:05 pm

AA, how about the roads you travel on? You going to maintain those yourself? You going to provide your own electricity? running water? collect and deliver your own mail?

I believe that the private sector could provide for all our transportation needs. My plan is to become completely self-sufficient. I plan to generate all the energy I need. I plan to have a well for my water needs. I'll have no need for mail delivery.

The government is more than just the police. The police are there to ensure that what is there is being used properly. It's unbelievable that this really has to be explained as to what the government provides for you. For all your proclamations of thinking outside the box, you tend to think about what's inside one little box (you and your home). Quite frankly, your disdain for the police is alarming - especially for someone who is going to be an officer of the court.

Sorry that my views scare you so much. The alarm you feel regarding my worldview is probably less intense than the alarm I feel when a cop pulls into traffic behind me. It's visceral; my heart rate increases and I become tense until I'm away from him. You, I'm sure, think that I'm crazy for such a reaction but it's my body's natural response. Your last line came off a little cheap, IMO. While living in society I understand the concept that I have to play the game, Jimmy. It's just that simple. My frustration and disdain make it an unhappy game for me to play but I'm also well aware of the fact that while living amongst people who all believe certain things, I have to act like I believe them to for the gears of the machine to keep turning. And for now, this shitty system is the best we have. So I begrudgingly play the game. Because there is no other practical choice. I'm more logical than you realize. Our operating assumptions simply happen to be rather divergent.

My fundamental problem is that I was never given the choice to either retain my personal sovereignty or give it up in exchange for the supposed security provided by our government. I was born a slave of government. There's no place on the face of this earth where I, as a human being, can live without the oppressive hand of organized government always hovering over my head. I'm not sure you have ANY concept of true freedom, to be honest. Which is fine--it works for you. It doesn't work for me. It makes me sad and depressed to think I will never have the ability to fully enjoy my god-given freedom in any real way. I'm an old soul, one that would probably be much happier living on this earth about 5000 years ago when we were purely hunter gatherers.

Tipmoose · Post by **Tipmoose** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:25 pm

I have a feeling there are a great many areas in Alaska and Canada where you could go and live precisely as you wish. They have a hard enough time finding people who WANT to be found up there...much less someone who doesn't.

DocZaius · Post by **DocZaius** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:28 pm

Montana, too.