Don't Vote!

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:14 pm

With no government, how do you propose that we build roads, build schools and teach our children, have police protection, have fire protection, etc?

There are an infinite number of ways to organize the building of such resources on a voluntary basis that require no government force.

slideman67 · Post by **slideman67** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:38 pm

Really? Please describe in detail. Who is going to pay for it? Who is going to mobilize the resources to do it?

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:48 pm

Really? Please describe in detail. Who is going to pay for it? Who is going to mobilize the resources to do it?

I'm not going down the never-ending "yes, but" road. If you're interested I'll link you to resources that will you let you explore different ideas for how it might be done.

As far as who will pay for it: the consumers of the products/services will pay for them.
As far as who will mobilize the resources: entrepreneurs, investors, maybe non-profit orgs, etc.

slideman67 · Post by **slideman67** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:45 pm

So, the people who use roads, as in everyone, will pay for them. Sounds like what we do now with taxes. And when does the private sector have the incentive to do something for the public good?

Your approach is illogical and non-practical.

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:02 pm

So, the people who use roads, as in everyone, will pay for them. Sounds like what we do now with taxes. And when does the private sector have the incentive to do something for the public good?

Your approach is illogical and non-practical.

Not everyone uses roads. And not everyone uses them the same amount. The private sector has more incentive to do something good for their customers than government has to do for the public.

You haven't even considered how such an approach could work, so I find it laughable that you're already dismissing it as illogical and impractical.

G8rMom7 · Post by **G8rMom7** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:13 pm

Nice to have slider back in here getting into it and all that!

I sort of get where you're going Wes, but I just think that even when anarchy takes hold, it doesn't last long...eventually someone takes power...although I love hearing you talk about it because you almost get me thinking it's possible, but then nahhh...Here is a new video by a fellow Gator and former PJTV commentator...he pretty much says exactly what I believe when it comes to gov't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLD6VChcWCE#

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:00 pm

even when anarchy takes hold, it doesn't last long...

The problem with this objection is that "limited government" doesn't last either. The US government was created as one of the smallest, most limited governments in the history of mankind. Never before had a government been so strictly limited through "legal" means. And what has been the result? The US government has grown into the the largest and most powerful leviathan that the world has ever seen. Never before has a government had the reach, the resources, the military might that the US government currently possesses.

A couple important articles for you to check out m7:

First, Hans Hermann Hoppe's On the Impossibility of Limited Government and the Prospects for a Second American Revolution: http://mises.org/daily/2874

Second, Robert Murphy's But Wouldn't Warlords Take Over?: http://mises.org/daily/1855

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:03 pm

I should say also that the basic reason why government is impossible to limit is because government possesses the legal authority to initiate force against people. The first 10 words of Article I Section 8 of the US Constitution destroyed ANY chance of limiting the government's power over time. It was doomed from the start because government feeds off the wealth produced by the free market and when you start with a tiny government, you actually create a free market that has the freedom to produce HUGE amounts of wealth.....HUGE amounts of wealth for that very government to confiscate over time. There's no stopping it. That's why the smallest governments become the largest governments.

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:11 am

There is no categorical difference between legalizing government theft in the name of taxation and legalizing government rape in the name of the common good of the species. Imagine how much better things could be if we could appoint a tiny group of people who were legally allowed to rape women! We could choose the brightest, healthiest, best exemplars of our society and they'd be allowed to spread their seed anywhere they saw fit. If that power had been given to government, people today would say, "Even if we get rid of government rape would still exist".

radbag · Post by **radbag** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:11 am

With no government, how do you propose that we build roads, build schools and teach our children, have police protection, have fire protection, etc?

AA ... i got this.

AA don't need protection...the only protection he needs is from the police and the gov't....how'd i do?

G8rMom7 · Post by **G8rMom7** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:37 am

^^^Ha ha. And AA, the Constitution is the longest living document and system of gov't ever. And if we can keep from destroying it, it could very well continue to be the best system of gov't ever conceived. The problem with it has really only been over the past 100 years or so...starting with Woodrow Wilson and the development of the Fed and other Gov't entities that really have no place in the original idea for this country. So there are many things I agree with you on, but if we had stuck to the original plan, this system of gov't while never being perfect, would cetainly be better than lawlessness.

DocZaius · Post by **DocZaius** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:44 am

While I can understand where AA's coming from, government is good for a few things. Off the top of my head (and I'm sure AA will have a comeback for each of these):

1. Public health: clean drinking water, garbage and sewer services, mandatory vaccinations, the human genome project, etc.
2. National defense: voluntary private-citizen militias just ain't gonna cut it if the Rooskies or Chi-Comms decide they want to invade.
3. The Interstate Highway System: while I concede that private roadways might work in the local setting, getting from Miami to Seattle would be a nightmare.
4. Generally, providing a framework for justice: in an anarchic society, who decides how criminals should be punished? Who decides how civil disputes are settled? Somebody has to make a decision if you want to avoid violence.

slideman67 · Post by **slideman67** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:58 am

Please AA, name me 1 person who doesn't use roads in this country. I'll wait but I won't hold my breath.
AA, what incentive does private industry have to make roads, schools, provide police protection, etc? Answer, none! Private businesses have a responsibility to their shareholders, and not necessarily the public good.

Doc, I would add a few more things

Public education - the decision to make education free to the masses instead of just the wealthy few is one of the best things this country did and in doing so created the middle class, and created the world's largest economy.

Regulations - things like the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, etc, improved the quality of life in this country.

Ensuring the basic necessities of civiliation - garbage removal, sewer systems, the electric power systems, street lights, stop signs, etc. NONE of these things could be maintained without a government, and there is NOBODY who does not use these things.

I'll say it again AA, your approach is illogical, non-practical and unsustainable.

slideman67 · Post by **slideman67** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:02 am

Nice to have slider back in here getting into it and all that! I sort of get where you're going Wes, but I just think that even when anarchy takes hold, it doesn't last long...eventually someone takes power...although I love hearing you talk about it because you almost get me thinking it's possible, but then nahhh...Here is a new video by a fellow Gator and former PJTV commentator...he pretty much says exactly what I believe when it comes to gov't.

Thanks.

People who don't vote are a major soapbox for me. Both of my parents were in politics, so I am a major political junkie, which is pretty obvious. If you don't vote, don't bitch about the government. And as I said above, and which you and I are in agreement, when you don't vote, IMHO you abdicate one of your responsibilities as an American citizen, and I have no sympathy towards your or your opinions on how things should be run in this country.

radbag · Post by **radbag** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:25 am

AA, what incentive does private industry have to make roads, schools, provide police protection, etc?

AA - i got this one as well.

money...money is the incentive...

what else you got slidey?

slideman67 · Post by **slideman67** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:31 am

OK how? Are you saying these should be for profit services? If so, I would say you are being illogical as well.

Next.

radbag · Post by **radbag** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:42 am

you asked what the incentive would be for private industry to make roads, schools, etc...the incentive would be money.

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:39 pm

OK how? Are you saying these should be for profit services? If so, I would say you are being illogical as well.

Next.

For profit services would be one way, certainly. But non profit services could be another. The key is that the market should be free to decide. If people want certain services provided in a non profit manner, they could get together voluntarily and create an association or organization to provide the service.

Tipmoose · Post by **Tipmoose** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:16 pm

I will be voting, same as always....much to slider's chagrin.

DocZaius · Post by **DocZaius** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:18 pm

If people want certain services provided in a non profit manner, they could get together voluntarily and create an association or organization to provide the service.

How do you think government got started in the first place?

G8rMom7 · Post by **G8rMom7** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:32 pm

Ha ha ha ha Doc...touche!

slideman67 · Post by **slideman67** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:38 pm

I will be voting, same as always....much to slider's chagrin.

There may be hope for you someday in the future.

Nice one Doc.

So Ricky, are you advocating that private industry make roads and we pay to use them? How well do you think that will go over?

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:46 pm

If people want certain services provided in a non profit manner, they could get together voluntarily and create an association or organization to provide the service.
How do you think government got started in the first place?

Actually, I've never seen an authoritative account of how government was created. My guess is that once people chose to live closely together it allowed sociopaths easy targets.

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:48 pm

So Ricky, are you advocating that private industry make roads and we pay to use them? How well do you think that will go over?

Outside government, we always pay for our use of resources. Services/goods provided by government seem "free" because they steal the money up front and then don't charge for use.

What's so wrong with paying for what you use?

DocZaius · Post by **DocZaius** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:10 am

If people want certain services provided in a non profit manner, they could get together voluntarily and create an association or organization to provide the service.
How do you think government got started in the first place?

Actually, I've never seen an authoritative account of how government was created. My guess is that once people chose to live closely together it allowed sociopaths easy targets.

I imagine government got started before there was writing, but it seems logical to me that a primitive tribe wanted a more efficient way to protect themselves from warring tribes and to equitably distribute their food and other resources. So someone got put in charge of each. As their little society flourished, there was a need for greater oversight of these and other essential tasks (at the same time specialization and trade allowed fewer labor resources to be put to actually producing food and fighting). So the little tribal government grew. And grew and grew.