Obama's Rule: Turn in Thy Neighbor

a1bion · Post by **a1bion** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:09 pm

Um, facts are stuff that are like, true, and stuff. Not just shit you pulled out of your fevered imagination. Try again.

G8rMom7 · Post by **G8rMom7** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:14 pm

a1...here's an argument for you...why can't they find this stuff out on their own? Do they know how to use the internet? They can find all the dissent they want just by opening a Facebook account. And without someone telling me what they will be doing with email addresses they collect, I don't trust it. It has nothing to do with conspiracy theories either.

And it's the same thing with these Town Halls...people who have never been involved with politics are getting frustrated with a certain issue...they go to a Town Hall to express their opinion as a citizen and the DNC calls them a mob sent out by Insurance Companies to cause trouble. Who are the conspiracy theorists again?

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:22 pm

Um, facts are stuff that are like, true, and stuff. Not just shit you pulled out of your fevered imagination. Try again.

What in my post wasn't a fact? That Hitler wanted people to inform on nonbelievers? I can't believe you'd defend Hitler. That kinda shocks me bro.

G8RKyle · Post by **G8RKyle** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:22 pm

Josh, you act as if I've personally offended you. I would love to have an informed debate and hear your opinion without all the name calling. I'm not comparing the President to Hitler. I don't think the President would ever use this information to pull people from their homes and have them sent to prison or executed for dissent. All I said was the the tactic of information gathering was similar, as it was also similar to McCarthy era fear-mongering. The fact is that the White House website is asking people to send in information about people that disagree with their policy. I don't even know if the President approved of that. But man, you basically said that I need to pull my head out of my ass, or get out of my echo chamber. That doesn't help anything. It just makes it easy for me to call you a nut job, which is what you're calling me. And I won't call you that. I respect your opinion, and your right to have that opinion, on this and any other topic. I'm open to reasoned arguments against my position, and I will listen to you if you can describe your opinion without being degrading and derogatory to me personally.

G8RKyle · Post by **G8RKyle** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:26 pm

You might even change my mind. I'm willing to listen as to why you think it's a good idea for the White House to be soliciting people to forward emails and to rat out people it says are spreading misinformation. I don't know of any other President that has ever asked people to do that. Every President I remember, mostly Clinton and W Bush, when confronted with dissenting opinions just responded that they were glad we lived in a country where people were free to speak their mind. This is not the message that was on that White House blog.

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:28 pm

I will listen to you if you can describe your opinion without being degrading and derogatory to me personally.

radbag · Post by **radbag** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:33 pm

I will listen to you if you can describe your opinion without being degrading and derogatory to me personally.

+1

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:05 pm

Senator Cornyn's full letter to Obama...good stuff:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/18178226/cornyn#key96i4bm9wet4c5a30ok8

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:21 pm

And just a little history for the benefit of a1:

In 1930's Germany, the new socialist government of Adolf Hitler (NAZI National Socialist Workers' Party) began indoctrinating children in the quasi-military organization, the Hitler Youth, to inform on their parents should they overhear discussions subversive to the policies of the Leader. As the noose was tightened, local community organizers were appointed to watch their neighbors and were told to report subversive comments to the bureaucrats above them. Neighbors informed on neighbors, some for reasons of patriotism or loyalty, some from fear. A modern inquisition ensued; a terror to free thought and expression. Increasingly harsh penalties were meted out to those who dared to dissent.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/08/citizen_informants.html

G8rMom7 · Post by **G8rMom7** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:31 pm

^^^LOL...community organizers!!! I LOVE that last bullet point in Cornyn's letter.

I was thinking the same thing...I know at Disney we have to be very careful with data collection...purge when people don't want to be on the mailing lists, etc. And we would never ever be allowed to collect an email address without the permission of the owner of that address.

But of course, Disney is not the federal gov't. I realize that...I'm not a TOTAL nut job. (Great post by the way Kyle).

a1bion · Post by **a1bion** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:37 am

Still waiting for a single fact to back up Kyle's conspiracy theory over here in the reality based community. Why is it so hard for you guys to come up with a simple piece of evidence to back up these conspiracies you're putting out there? It's an extraordinarily simple request. Just prove what you've claimed. It's simple.

G8RKyle · Post by **G8RKyle** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:01 am

What conspiracy theory? Have you even read my posts? I just posted a link, and compared two tactics. I compared two things and said they were similar.
I'm open to listen if you can logically explain how they are not similar, without getting into name calling.

a1bion · Post by **a1bion** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:21 am

You posted a link to a White House blog post, asking people to send in what they're hearing from people as far as the misinformation being put out there about insurance reform. From there, you made a wild logical jump that the White House was creating a database and asking people to turn in their neighbors. From there, you compared the adminstration to the Nazis (which you're now backing away from without backing away from it). I'm asking for some evidence to back up that leap in logic and you still haven't provided anything.

Give me some evidence to back up what you're claiming, Kyle. It's extremely simple. Just do it. Otherwise, it's just conspiracy theory hokum.

radbag · Post by **radbag** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:25 am

we're just chatting about it in the office here and a few of the guys here weren't really aware of the story (couple of canadian guys but they've lived here for over 20 years...are now citizens btw)

anyways - they've passed along emails over the course of the last several months re: healthcare reform...most have been thought provoking editorials and research type oriented pieces on the healthcare/pharma industry in that the content was mostly not supportive of reform...the correspondence has sparked enlightening and thought provoking conversation.

post discussion this morning...no one wants to pass anything along anymore for fear of being put on the federal "enemy list"

it's a sad, sad time for our nation when the POTUS seeks to suppress the freedom of speech.

a1bion · Post by **a1bion** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:28 am

Still waiting.

G8RKyle · Post by **G8RKyle** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:07 am

I never made any jump to a database. I don't know what they are going to do with the information. But the fact that they're asking you to report
things you hear/read out there is the part about turning in your neighbor. IF someone forwards you something they think is "misinformation," and it
has all your friends email addresses on it, and you turn it in, it's not a far stretch to call that "turning in your neighbor." And I think the historical
comparison to the NAZIs is fitting, and you haven't said anything to refute it. Here is my comparison, simple as it is. The White House is asking private
citizens to forward information about what other private citizens are saying about an administration's policy. The NAZIs trained up private citizens and
bureaucrats to turn in information about private citizens who were saying things about that administrations policies. It is a similar situation as far as that
information is concerned.

Now, the White House is not training people up, and I don't think they've appointed another czar to spy on us. They are just asking private citizens to report
things they might hear in casual conversation or in forwarded emails. If I were a conspiracy theorist, I would make an assumption about what they were doing
with all this. I'm not making any assumptions about what they are doing with this information. They might just want to make an educated response to what they
deem to be misinformation. They might do a lot of things. I don't know what they're going to do with it. I hope they just want to use it to form a response.

I just think the comparison is a valid one, and you have not made any argument that will change my mind besides basically calling me a dumbass. And you win
more flies with honey than with vinegar.

a1bion · Post by **a1bion** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:27 am

So no evidence, no facts. Just hyperbole and hysteria. Thanks for playing.

G8RKyle · Post by **G8RKyle** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:33 am

Vinegar it is then.

a1bion · Post by **a1bion** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:39 am

Hey man, I just asked you for some evidence to back up your claims and you have failed time and again to provide it. Don't feel bitter about it. I read all of your ranting about Nazis and got a good laugh out of it, but you still have failed to provide evidence to back up your little conspiracy theories. I still fail to see what's so hard about finding facts to back up your claims and I apologize if that hurts your tender feelings. But that's reality.

G8rMom7 · Post by **G8rMom7** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:48 am

There are internet laws that apply to businesses on the collection of data. Just from my lowly marketing/legal position, I can say we would never be able to collect email addresses of anyone without their permission. We have to provide proof of our discarding of email addresses that we don't have permission to market to. It's VERY stringent requirements in Europe because they are still very sensative about anyone collecting data on them...why? anyone? anyone?...because Nazi Germany did just that and EVEN with Marketing, the European people get nervous about anyone having their information let alone the gov't.

I will go hunting today in my files from our PII attorney whose seminar attended where he explained the rules for data collection in Europe and other places in the world. Hilter did a number on those peeps and they are still skitish about it today. But not the US I guess...we expect to have our privacy invaded on a daily basis I assume?

Anyway, rad...have you talked to your Canadian buddies? I'm really trying to get as much real-life info as possible on their system. I've heard both good and bad...but the people who say it's good seem to be really defensive and get downright angry when you insinuate otherwise...which makes me wonder. I plan to talk to my friend who lived up there with her autisic kid for a couple years. I know she was happy when she first moved up there but I'm not sure if health care even played into her longing to come back to the states (which she did).

MinGator · Post by **MinGator** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:00 am

impossible to have a fact of that nature. You really believe they'd let that little 'nugget' out there? We can all play this game. Prove to me that they aren't! You can't do that either. You are operating from a position of trust with the Gov't. I'm not. No need to be so angry as you're coming off in your posts. Maybe I'm just reading them wrong, but when you drop the name calling in the first one, they all carry that tone and not one of level headed debate.
The reason I'm assuming that they are collecting data is that if all they wanted was to dispel misinformation then why not just post the correct information? Post it as fact. You can't tell me that the WH is not already getting its so called misinformation in its inbox without having to have the emails forwarded or 'casual conversations' reported from every Tom, Dick and Harry. Hell, the man has already had 'infomercials' to get his facts out there. And now he wants to have a vote in less time than he took to decide on the right breed of dog for his family. Sorry I lose trust when someone just puts something in front of me and says "don't bother reading it, its all right", so I don't see this as a big jump wrt trusting this administration.

annarborgator · Post by **annarborgator** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:02 am

Plenty of jews in Nazy Germany played the wait and see game, wanting to trust the government. They didn't get sufficient facts until they stepped off the train into the concentration camp. Just sayin.

a1bion · Post by **a1bion** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:07 am

According to you guys, all of the following statements are true:

Mark Sanford was just hiking the Appalachian Trail. He said so, so it must be true.
Urban Meyer is heading to Notre Dame. Paul Finebaum said it, so it must be true.
David Ortiz never used roids. He said he didn't before the season, so it must be true.

Discuss.

IHateUGAlyDawgs · Post by **IHateUGAlyDawgs** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:10 am

According to you guys, all of the following statements are true:

Mark Sanford was just hiking the Appalachian Trail. He said so, so it must be true.
Urban Meyer is heading to Notre Dame. Paul Finebaum said it, so it must be true.
David Ortiz never used roids. He said he didn't before the season, so it must be true.

Discuss.

No, a1. That would be your line of thinking.

The WH says it isn't so, so it isn't so.

IHateUGAlyDawgs · Post by **IHateUGAlyDawgs** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:11 am

so in your words...

your last post was an epic "fail".