The Back Alley Archives

Joiner Arrested Tuesday Morning

2007-10-03T22:43:58-05:00

^^^it's bad publicity...the public opinion in many ways is the ultimate judge.

did they fire her? i don't even know the outcome to that.

if they did, they were right to fire her...her target audience are pre-teens who are impressionable and very easily swayed...disney did the right thing if they did.

if they didn't, they are jokes who have no moral obligation to their fans, their target audience and their parents....money won out there and if that is the case, i will sell my disney stock tomorrow.

Sell your stock my friend...they kept her. See my point of view is HOW would little kids find out about it in the first place? You gonna show it to your kids? If they got rid of her, then these little eyes would most definitely have found out about it and been destroyed...well, that's a strong word, but you know what I mean.

And in her case, she is an adult, and did nothing illegal. She took a private picture that was meant for the eyes of her boyfriend only, but someone betrayed her trust and put it on the web. HOW does that possibly warrant ruining her career? I do think you're a bit harsh Rad.

But honestly, this sort of thing is exactly why I can't stand it that my kids OR any kids look at celebrities and athletes as role models. People are imperfect and when we put them up on these pedistals they will almost always fail you...no one is perfect...we all make mistakes. There has only been one living person who was perfect (in my belief anyway) and he is really the only one that you can look at as being flawless.

And after this long thread, I know what you're going to say...yes, people will make mistakes but it's all in how they take their medicine. If they "man up" and take it, admit it, it's fine. But anyone who cares about their career and their future is going to want to fight and do whatever they have to save it. I don't think that means they aren't manning up...it just means that they are dealing with things in the only human imperfect way they know how to.

I'm done now too. It's a good thing we are friends on a message board Rad becasue I would be letting you down every day if you saw me every day. And I would be miserable about it.

Statistics: Posted by G8rMom7 — Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:43 pm

Joiner Arrested Tuesday Morning

2007-10-03T22:28:58-05:00

and you're a good defense attorney at that i'll say...no one i want more than you defending me cause you got your shit together bro.

Thanks man, I appreciate that. There's two things a degree in philosophy will definitely teach you to do: break down arguments into their elements and attack the elements wherever possible.

Maybe one of these days I will make a decent defense attorney. It's not necessarily in my plan right now but who knows what I'll end up doing.

Statistics: Posted by annarborgator — Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:28 pm

Joiner Arrested Tuesday Morning

2007-10-03T22:24:52-05:00

^^^it's bad publicity...the public opinion in many ways is the ultimate judge.

did they fire her? i don't even know the outcome to that.

if they did, they were right to fire her...her target audience are pre-teens who are impressionable and very easily swayed...disney did the right thing if they did.

if they didn't, they are jokes who have no moral obligation to their fans, their target audience and their parents....money won out there and if that is the case, i will sell my disney stock tomorrow.

Statistics: Posted by radbag — Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:24 pm

Joiner Arrested Tuesday Morning

2007-10-03T22:09:29-05:00

Hey Rad, total tangent..well, sort of still on topic. What about the girl from High School Musical that had a nude picture get out on the internet. She has LOTS of little eyes watching her. Do you think Disney should have let her go because her lack of good judgement and trusting the wrong person?

In my opinion, only if Disney had let her go would it have hurt those little eyes. I don't think many kids even know about it, but they sure would have if they replaced her in HSM3. But maybe because what she did wasn't really illegal, it's not the same thing? (in your opinion?). Or because it's a girl posing nude the rules just get thrown out the window in the Rad book of law.??? [img]{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif[/img]

Statistics: Posted by G8rMom7 — Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:09 pm

Joiner Arrested Tuesday Morning

2007-10-03T21:09:19-05:00

The "why" of the offense always matters to me...when I have less than adequate information to understand the "why" all I can do is wonder. I try my best to not jump to many conclusions. I've landed on too many rocks that gave way beneath my feet. That's why I postulate and brainstorm possibilities.

And I do admit--I feel I'm much more of a defense attorney at heart than a prosecutor.

and you're a good defense attorney at that i'll say...no one i want more than you defending me cause you got your shit together bro.

Statistics: Posted by radbag — Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:09 pm

Joiner Arrested Tuesday Morning

2007-10-03T21:08:01-05:00

I think wanting to win at a game is different than wanting to be the BEST at something (your job, school, etc.). Although they both CAN involve competitiveness, they don't have to. IMO. And I agree...great thread!

i don't arm wrestle cause i lack arm strength...and i don't play craps because i don't know the rules very well.

what were we saying? oh yeah - great thread...i'm such an asshole.

Statistics: Posted by radbag — Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:08 pm

Joiner Arrested Tuesday Morning

2007-10-03T21:04:30-05:00

The "why" of the offense always matters to me...when I have less than adequate information to understand the "why" all I can do is wonder. I try my best to not jump to many conclusions. I've landed on too many rocks that gave way beneath my feet. That's why I postulate and brainstorm possibilities.

And I do admit--I feel I'm much more of a defense attorney at heart than a prosecutor.

Statistics: Posted by annarborgator — Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:04 pm

Joiner Arrested Tuesday Morning

2007-10-03T21:03:04-05:00

agreed wholeheartedly...and this is the imperfection in the system that really, WE ALL have to deal with.

as for destroying lives, i think you're looking at it from the material point of view...so what if tj loses his scholarship, he gains manhood in accepting his faults and gains an opportunity to fix himself...same with vick losing all those dollars in endorsements and contracts...yes he's destroyed in that regard but his life is now enriched as he has fixed a part of his life which was against the law...he's acknowledged it, he's addressed it, he's being punished for it, and he's better for it all...he walks away with an opportunity to get BETTER, not worse...i bet he'll argue this experience has made him better...i'll bet that.

Every new experience teaches us something. And, IMHO, in that situation can actually cut both ways. If you always get away with shit by begging forgiveness and one time they drop the hammer, then you will learn something. On the other hand, if you ALWAYS get caught and penalized harshly, sometimes you can learn as much or more if someone actually shows you that mercy.

And yes, I know Tony has been "in trouble" before but to be honest I don't know the details of that situation so I can't begin to determine if we should think of him as a sort of repeat offender. I'm slow to judge like that.

This has been a great thread....see rad...the positive effects happen to society even before punishment is handed out, so why rely so heavily on the punishment to seal the deal? Of course, we are two fine upstanding gentlemen who take the time to think about these things.

harsh vs merciful - good point and i agree that there are two ways to go about teaching lessons...if we are in agreement, i think the only way you can properly assign method of lesson is to bring in ones background and history....repeat offenders can't be treated the same as first time offenders...so i don't know exactly what mr joiners history is but we ALL know that he was shown mercy by the coach meyer already...he was shown mercy by shelly meyer already....the gator nation has shown him mercy as well by accepting him back as a person who learned his lesson and is now on the straight and narrow...are we suggesting he should be given mercy again? are we to say twice, three times, ten times, a million times of mercy will be affective in teaching mr joiner more lessons? i think not...

Statistics: Posted by radbag — Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:03 pm

Joiner Arrested Tuesday Morning

2007-10-03T20:56:14-05:00

with fame comes price...i can't say it any easier.

as people chilling to aspire, i have more faith in the human makeup and human nature that each individual WANTS to be better than the next...it's really rather basic...i want a nicer car, i want a nicer home, i want a hotter wife, etc...people just don't think of the ramifications...i got a nicer car and home therefore i am susceptible to theft and breakin...i have a hotter wife and therefore i am susceptible to adultery...it happens...it goes with the territory...

you're gonna have to do better than that my idealistic good friend...i don't know one person who aspires NOT to be the best...those who do join a union i guess

The idea of "best" is completely personal to each human being. In your system, IMHO, being average would be best for me. So, in a way, you might be right--everyone probably feels like they are chasing "best". The only problem? If I lived under your rule, by your measurements of "best", I would actually aspire to be slightly less prominent/successful than the minimum standard of fame/success that would kick me up into the higher crime bracket.

i acknowledge your position and won't comment any further on that other than to say that there is nothing wrong with that mindset...i can either be a big fish in the little pond or the little fish in the big pond.

in the first scenario, i am king and i rule the roost...all the other fish look to me for guidance and what i do matters more than what the others do...i receive the accolades from the successes, and i receive the harsh criticisms from the failures...the extreme regard goes with being the big fish in the little pond and it is much more easier to be heard and be discovered here because the pond is so small....my IMPACT affects all in this pond.

in the second scenario, i am content being one of the masses and it suits me just fine...true - i will not ever receive the recognition that the same sized fish gets in a smaller pond but i do not get the negative criticisms either...i am perfectly content in this big pond and if things go awry for me here, i just swim to the other side of the pond...one thing is for sure, i am just a number here and it is very difficult for me to differentiate myself from the rest of the school....the pond is massive and i like it like that....i could fuck up and no one would give a shit...hardly gets noticed...aint that great?

who is tony joiner? who is AA?

Statistics: Posted by radbag — Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:56 pm

Joiner Arrested Tuesday Morning

2007-10-03T20:42:42-05:00

yeah - you're right...tis truly unfair...but tis certainly warranted considering you've got many, many people globally aspiring to be like you...so if you get off scott free, the message will be, cheat and steal and break the law, and be a vigilante - but be good enough to get away with it...if you don't and you get caught, you still have a 50/50 chance that you only get a slap on the wrist so by all accounts, the crime seems worth the time.

a couple quick thoughts here:

(1) I'm not sure how the behavior of other people, not related to an offender or her crime, can ever justify the unfair treatment of said offender by the criminal system. I think you may believe they brought it on themselves, or chose, that path in life when they entered the public eye. They knew what they were getting into and that justifies the disparate treatment. However, the offender cannot control the behavior of other people. Unless she expressly and specifically labels herself an *actual* role model and calls for people to look up to her, how can she be held responsible for people treating her as a role model? (for clarification: she's 'responsible' because her treatment by the system changes)

(2) I don't think people should get off scott free if they are caught breaking the law. I've never advocated that idea. I simply believe they should be treated like everyone else.

i think we're making it more complicated than we have to really...a person is either a) a public figure b) not a public figure

if you are (a), chances are, you will be judged, you will be scrutinized, you will be idolized, you will be in demand, you will be targeted by more (maybe a heckuva alot more) than those who are (b)

having said that, (a)'s life and it's path and it's direction and it's decisions greatly affect more people than (b)

therefore (a)'s outcomes and happenstances have more of a negative/positive force on lives than (b)

joey can steal a sign, get thrown in the klink and nobody gives a fuck...tj can do the same thing and all of a sudden, people are talking....conversely, joey scores a touchdown for the lexington canaries of the lexington flag football league and nobody west of louisville gave a fuck...tj does the same thing on saturday and people in hawaii are talking

so you have to admit what i'm saying is true - the public figure's actions are praised more and are vilified more...you don't like the accolades, become a missionary in the philippines, have a son, and teach him how to throw lefty...you wanna be a superstar and drive nice cars and hang out at nice clubs and date models, go ahead and do it - but just remember, little eyes are watching and it just goes with the territory...with the fame and the glory comes RESPONSIBILITY and you have to admit that.

as for public figures getting treated like everyone else, i believe they should too. i am in agreement with that. if the last 20 people who trespassed did not get arrested, the million dollar question should be, SHOULD THEY HAVE BEEN? or maybe the trillion dollar question should be, COULD THEY HAVE BEEN? if the answer is yes to ANY of the 20, than mr joiner should/could have been arrested too...so i don't know what the point then would be...i fear that the hangup is, tj got arrested because he is a high profile athlete...end of story...none of his co-perps got cuffed like he did so he's being treated unfairly....well i argue - if he trespassed and he violated a law, he should be arrested...end of story...doesn't matter what happened to the other guys and doesn't matter that he's a high profile public figure...facts are the facts, he violated a law and he should be punished...end of story.

now you're the lawyer aa, i am not...i know it is your job to defend and represent....but i gotta say, the more people defend and excuse and reason and theorize why he broke the law, i gotta admit - it pisses me the fuck off....cause he's wrong and he should just say so (i think he did though when he told whoever he told on the phone that he was going to jail)...maybe that's why mike vick said what he said and how he said it at his press conference...the more you defend and theorize and reason why he did the things he did, he comes off as a fucking asshole punk who thinks he's above the law and all the law abiding citizens look like schmucks cause they're too law abiding and too goody two shoe'd to ever finish first....sounds like a rant because it is...if everyone thought for a moment about the consequences of their actions, the world would be a better place and i know no other way to teach that than show what happens to those who don't give a fuck.

Statistics: Posted by radbag — Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:42 pm

Joiner Arrested Tuesday Morning

2007-10-03T17:36:39-05:00

I think wanting to win at a game is different than wanting to be the BEST at something (your job, school, etc.). Although they both CAN involve competitiveness, they don't have to. IMO. And I agree...great thread!

Statistics: Posted by G8rMom7 — Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:36 pm

Joiner Arrested Tuesday Morning

2007-10-03T16:24:17-05:00

agreed wholeheartedly...and this is the imperfection in the system that really, WE ALL have to deal with.

as for destroying lives, i think you're looking at it from the material point of view...so what if tj loses his scholarship, he gains manhood in accepting his faults and gains an opportunity to fix himself...same with vick losing all those dollars in endorsements and contracts...yes he's destroyed in that regard but his life is now enriched as he has fixed a part of his life which was against the law...he's acknowledged it, he's addressed it, he's being punished for it, and he's better for it all...he walks away with an opportunity to get BETTER, not worse...i bet he'll argue this experience has made him better...i'll bet that.

Every new experience teaches us something. And, IMHO, in that situation can actually cut both ways. If you always get away with shit by begging forgiveness and one time they drop the hammer, then you will learn something. On the other hand, if you ALWAYS get caught and penalized harshly, sometimes you can learn as much or more if someone actually shows you that mercy.

And yes, I know Tony has been "in trouble" before but to be honest I don't know the details of that situation so I can't begin to determine if we should think of him as a sort of repeat offender. I'm slow to judge like that.

This has been a great thread....see rad...the positive effects happen to society even before punishment is handed out, so why rely so heavily on the punishment to seal the deal? Of course, we are two fine upstanding gentlemen who take the time to think about these things.

Statistics: Posted by annarborgator — Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:24 pm

Joiner Arrested Tuesday Morning

2007-10-03T16:24:11-05:00

with fame comes price...i can't say it any easier.

as people chilling to aspire, i have more faith in the human makeup and human nature that each individual WANTS to be better than the next...it's really rather basic...i want a nicer car, i want a nicer home, i want a hotter wife, etc...people just don't think of the ramifications...i got a nicer car and home therefore i am susceptible to theft and breakin...i have a hotter wife and therefore i am susceptible to adultery...it happens...it goes with the territory...

you're gonna have to do better than that my idealistic good friend...i don't know one person who aspires NOT to be the best...those who do join a union i guess

The idea of "best" is completely personal to each human being. In your system, IMHO, being average would be best for me. So, in a way, you might be right--everyone probably feels like they are chasing "best". The only problem? If I lived under your rule, by your measurements of "best", I would actually aspire to be slightly less prominent/successful than the minimum standard of fame/success that would kick me up into the higher crime bracket.

Statistics: Posted by annarborgator — Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:24 pm

Joiner Arrested Tuesday Morning

2007-10-03T16:24:05-05:00

yeah - you're right...tis truly unfair...but tis certainly warranted considering you've got many, many people globally aspiring to be like you...so if you get off scott free, the message will be, cheat and steal and break the law, and be a vigilante - but be good enough to get away with it...if you don't and you get caught, you still have a 50/50 chance that you only get a slap on the wrist so by all accounts, the crime seems worth the time.

a couple quick thoughts here:

(1) I'm not sure how the behavior of other people, not related to an offender or her crime, can ever justify the unfair treatment of said offender by the criminal system. I think you may believe they brought it on themselves, or chose, that path in life when they entered the public eye. They knew what they were getting into and that justifies the disparate treatment. However, the offender cannot control the behavior of other people. Unless she expressly and specifically labels herself an *actual* role model and calls for people to look up to her, how can she be held responsible for people treating her as a role model? (for clarification: she's 'responsible' because her treatment by the system changes)

(2) I don't think people should get off scott free if they are caught breaking the law. I've never advocated that idea. I simply believe they should be treated like everyone else.

Statistics: Posted by annarborgator — Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:24 pm

Joiner Arrested Tuesday Morning

2007-10-03T15:52:55-05:00

...i don't know one person who aspires NOT to be the best...those who do join a union i guess

Rad, this is a nice thought, but there are a lot of people totally content with being mediocre...may I remind you of the website we all just abandoned?

I wrote you at one point (I think it was in my email to you) that I got frustrated with my daughter because she was totally content with getting a B on her first real test in school. I was horrified because when I was a kid if I didn't get an A, I cried. But someone, actually I think it was Vanders, said that her competitive streak might just come later on...or it might not come at all. Some people don't feel the need to be the BEST. I hope my kids aren't in that group, because I'm not sure how I'll deal with that, but it could happen.

does lanie play video games? does she play hide and go seek? does she run or race? does she play any of those internet games that my kids like to play? does she play tic tac toe? does she thumb wrestle? does she play rock-paper-scissors?

if she does any of that, she's competitive and she wants to win.

Statistics: Posted by radbag — Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:52 pm